Big Ol' Hairy Religion vs. Athiest Debate

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Why are so many Atheists such angry people who tend to push there anti beliefs on people? I don't hate you for not believing so don't hate me for believing. You don't have to believe in what I believe in ,so just don't and get over it. That go's for the religion pushers also. Don't push your views on others and move on ! Seems simple enough.:tired

Who is angry and who is pushing views on anyone? Nobody here, religious or otherwise is pushing anything.

Just because someone is not a theist doesn't mean they are anti Christian.

Just because someone lacks belief does not mean they are hateful.

Just because someone lacks belief that does not mean they are pushing their views on anyone. Everyone is sharing their opinions and beliefs (or lack of), that doesn't mean everyone is big, bad, mean, or hateful.

[steph_co 9]

I am agnostic. I don't have a certainty that God does not exist, I just don't feel that we can be sure of the true nature of God.

I find value in different religions. They are all (well...okay, most) trying to make people better people even if some people might twist that and use it for their own means. Some people need that something to hold onto. And before anybody freaks out, please go back and re-read each time I said "some." Thank you.

Titslereux...I read an interesting quote and now I wish I could remember who it was by. I want to say Nietzsche or Thomas Paine, or somebody. Something about it being a wise choice to choose to believe even if you might not because what are you losing, really? If you believe and you're right - good job, you win. If you believe and you're wrong - no God to punish you, so again, you win. Kind of a survival instinct. I found that very interesting and I realized that's exactly what it was that kept me from taking that final step out of religion even though I had wanted to for a very long time before that.

At the base of things, I'm Agnostic. But I also kind of dabble in Deism and Pantheism. I was really into figuring it all out awhile back until I fell into a group with a mentally-unstable individual running the group that acted like he was a freethinker, but truly was just a crazy person.

I basically just marvel at life's beauty and I feel like I am a better person without my religion (I didn't say a better person than people WITH religion...before anybody bashes me). I value life more. I treat people better. I don't have to wonder if I'm matching up to anybody's yardstick - I just have to ask myself if I'm proud of what I'm doing. If I'm not, then I can make changes accordingly. I strive harder to learn more about myself and people in general. I feel free since dropping religion.

I don't judge those that choose religion. That's your choice. That's your own road. Everybody has to choose the path that for them will produce the most growth in themselves.

The only gripe I have about religious people is why they feel that their personal beliefs ought to be shoved on an entire nation of people. Before anybody jumps all over me...take a look at the abortion debate around this country. The stem-cell debate. The euthanasia debate. Gay marriage. If you have no interest in participating in these things, fine - just don't try and force other people to conform. By making things illegal, you're not going to stop people from doing them - you'll just make them go underground. I'm all for live and let live. It's none of your business what I do with my life and it's none of my business what you do with yours. You can't force somebody to adopt a belief...it's just not possible.

And if anything in the previous paragraph does not apply to you, then there's no reason to get offended. I'm speaking of the ones that bring these laws into play, feeling that NOBODY should do these things and they should somehow be the parent of all the grown adults in this nation. I'm not necessarily referring to people that vote their conscience based on their religion...whatever...I can't say much about that without offending somebody. I was simply referring to those lawmakers that bring these laws up in the first place.

[Chelle B 0]

Who is angry and who is pushing views on anyone? Nobody here, religious or otherwise is pushing anything.

Just because someone is not a theist doesn't mean they are anti Christian.

Just because someone lacks belief does not mean they are hateful.

Just because someone lacks belief that does not mean they are pushing their views on anyone. Everyone is sharing their opinions and beliefs (or lack of), that doesn't mean everyone is big, bad, mean, or hateful.

Nice response....

Wouldn't life be nicer if everyone dropped the absolutes in their conversation (All, Never, Always...)

[sweethot143 2]

Titslereux...I read an interesting quote and now I wish I could remember who it was by. I want to say Nietzsche or Thomas Paine, or somebody. Something about it being a wise choice to choose to believe even if you might not because what are you losing, really? If you believe and you're right - good job, you win. If you believe and you're wrong - no God to punish you, so again, you win. Kind of a survival instinct. I found that very interesting and I realized that's exactly what it was that kept me from taking that final step out of religion even though I had wanted to for a very long time before that.

.

here is a similar quote:

"I rather of lived my life as if it were true, only to find out that it is not, than to have lived my life as if it wasn't true, only to find out that it is."

at different points in my life i have thought of that quote. it helps me stay focused on my end goal.

[green 6]

Oh, just positing here, but when someone posts a link to "Evil Bible Home Page", is it any wonder why people of faith feel that those without faith are anti-religious or hate religion -- or hate the Bible, as it were?

(green, I'm not bashing you here -- you have a right to post and read any website you want -- just making the point that by definition based on the title of the website you posted, there is a credible reason to believe some people are actually anti-Christian and hate the Bible)

A point well made, Gadget, and indeed I was uncomfortably aware that the title sounds very hostile to Christianity. :embarassed: And it is true that it is not a neutral site but it does a fine job of listing the contradictory verses in the Bible and of drawing one's attention to the violent material in this set of documents. I guess what I find valuable in this site is that it provides a different vision of the Bible from that which is generally understood. :ranger:

And, no, I don't believe that we have ever bashed each other even though we generally do find ourselves sitting on the opposite side of the fence.

[green 6]

I don't know, Chris, but I tend to shy away from making such a blanket statement about any large group of people. I know a lot of athiests who aren't angry, and while some athiests do express anger, I find it to be more related to the fact that they're just PEOPLE who happen to be angry for one reason or another. The same would apply to people who call themselves Christians who are very angry. They're just people, from my perspective sinful people as the rest of us are, who haven't learned how to deal with their anger.

Gadget makes good points, Chris. And I confess that I am still curious to know the details of how you have been harrassed by atheists. :ranger:

[Chelle B 0]

re: "When I pray I know that I am heard."

perhaps I'm missing something....I can't help but wonder what kind of ecclesiastical dynamics are set in motion, when one individual or group prays in direct opposition of another?

How can 'my' prayers be answered at the same time as 'your' prayers? Simplistic example: I know sports fans who 'pray' their team wins...seems like a waste of a good interface with one's creator to be preoccupied with something of such triviality....when we could be praying for world peace, food for the hungry, insight and understanding, etc....

My prayers are more of a conversation - I rarely ask for anything except specific healing for someone who needs it.

[kagoscuba 0]

I'm not an atheist, but my religion is quite contrary to the "norm" here in the US. I was raised a Methodist, went to church every Sunday, sang in the choir, went to vacation Bible School, and many other activities. These activities were always driven by my parents,and questioning religion was seen as "not having faith." well, once I was free of my parental bonds, I started questioning and reading more than the Bible. That's where I had the epiphany: "Religion is not the truth, God is."

Once I read about the council of Nicene, the conditions surrounding the creation of the Apostle's Creed, and the bastardization of the Bible, I was Enlightened. The Bible is no more the word of God than this post is. It has wonderful words and meaning, and the spirit of God may be in it; however, to believe,as some do, it is the infallible word of God is folly. That being said, I do follow many of the teachings of the Bible, and I do thank my parents for putting me on the path to enlightenment; I also thank God for giving me the intellect to question and use reason to walk the path.

[Nettie 1]

I am a Christian! I know there is a God by the many blessings he has given me in my life. I choose to believe! Take a look at this website....

IndividualBeliefs

[kagoscuba 0]

"I know there is a God by the many blessings he has given me in my life"

Do you mean blessings he has given you personally or to all of us? The reason why I ask is from the point of view that there is a God, but we are essentially like a huge ant farm. He (or she, or it) put all of the ingredients together and watches what evolves.

The old Christian idiom of "God helps those who helps themselves" is a pretty blatent way of saying "God doesn't have one iota of physical presence here on earth." Much as luck doesn't exist, physical interaction between God and humans does not exit. I would say every blessing you have received has been the direct result of either the hard work/love of someone who cares for you or your own for someone else.

I use the God/luck example like this. If God interfered, you wouldn't need a parishoner in Colorado with a gun to kill an intruder at a church; he would do it for them.

Buying a lottery ticket and winning the lottery is not lucky. Not buying a ticket and winning the lottery would be lucky. Like luck, many "blessings" are a matter of coincidental intersection, even if the coincidence is affected by a matter as small as getting out of bed that morning 5 minutes earlier than normal (could be the difference between buying the ticket and dying in a car accident on the way to buy the ticket).

[joe7777 1]

these are some of my favorite quotes. Try and answer these with your apologetics.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

- Epicurus

One is presuming (is one not?) that this is the same god who actually created the audience he was addressing. This leaves us with the insoluble mystery of why he would have molded ("in his own image," yet) a covetous, murderous, disrespectful, lying, and adulterous species. Create them sick, and then command them to be well? What a mad despot this is, and how fortunate we are that he exists only in the minds of his worshippers.

-Christopher Hitchens

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I am agnostic. I don't have a certainty that God does not exist, I just don't feel that we can be sure of the true nature of God.

I find value in different religions. They are all (well...okay, most) trying to make people better people even if some people might twist that and use it for their own means. Some people need that something to hold onto. And before anybody freaks out, please go back and re-read each time I said "some." Thank you.

Titslereux...I read an interesting quote and now I wish I could remember who it was by. I want to say Nietzsche or Thomas Paine, or somebody. Something about it being a wise choice to choose to believe even if you might not because what are you losing, really? If you believe and you're right - good job, you win. If you believe and you're wrong - no God to punish you, so again, you win. Kind of a survival instinct. I found that very interesting and I realized that's exactly what it was that kept me from taking that final step out of religion even though I had wanted to for a very long time before that.

At the base of things, I'm Agnostic. But I also kind of dabble in Deism and Pantheism. I was really into figuring it all out awhile back until I fell into a group with a mentally-unstable individual running the group that acted like he was a freethinker, but truly was just a crazy person.

I basically just marvel at life's beauty and I feel like I am a better person without my religion (I didn't say a better person than people WITH religion...before anybody bashes me). I value life more. I treat people better. I don't have to wonder if I'm matching up to anybody's yardstick - I just have to ask myself if I'm proud of what I'm doing. If I'm not, then I can make changes accordingly. I strive harder to learn more about myself and people in general. I feel free since dropping religion.

I don't judge those that choose religion. That's your choice. That's your own road. Everybody has to choose the path that for them will produce the most growth in themselves.

The only gripe I have about religious people is why they feel that their personal beliefs ought to be shoved on an entire nation of people. Before anybody jumps all over me...take a look at the abortion debate around this country. The stem-cell debate. The euthanasia debate. Gay marriage. If you have no interest in participating in these things, fine - just don't try and force other people to conform. By making things illegal, you're not going to stop people from doing them - you'll just make them go underground. I'm all for live and let live. It's none of your business what I do with my life and it's none of my business what you do with yours. You can't force somebody to adopt a belief...it's just not possible.

And if anything in the previous paragraph does not apply to you, then there's no reason to get offended. I'm speaking of the ones that bring these laws into play, feeling that NOBODY should do these things and they should somehow be the parent of all the grown adults in this nation. I'm not necessarily referring to people that vote their conscience based on their religion...whatever...I can't say much about that without offending somebody. I was simply referring to those lawmakers that bring these laws up in the first place.

Love you post! Great words, I agree with much of it.

I believe the phrase you are looking for in the 3rd paragraph is "Pascal's Wager."

[joe7777 1]

The Bible was written by man, inspired by the Word of God. Do a little research on the four Gospels of the New Testament:

Who Wrote the Gospels?

You could at least get your facts straight before you present them. Two of the Gospel writers actually knew Jesus (Matthew and John). So it was hardly written "before their own time".

Why do you think people 2000 years ago were not literate, and how do you know that everything was considered a miracle? Many people at that time didn't believe in Jesus (as the Son of God), even as he stood before them and performed miracles in front of them. They were intimidated by Him, so they crucified Him - a Man without sin. Today we hug our science and technology as if we were the very pinnacle of existence. What will people 2000 years from now think of us? (If we even make it that far).

In Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet, Bart D. Ehrman explains:

[A]ll four Gospels are written in Greek, by authors who were reasonably well educated and literate. In comparison with most other persons in the Roman world, all four authors, in fact, evince a high level of education. Something like 90% percent of the general population was completely illiterate — that is, unable to read and write

at all

.

To be sure, the Gospels are not among the literary masterpieces of antiquity. Their style, for example, is fairly rough overall (Mark is probably the worst, Luke the best). But it’s not easy to write a book, even for well-educated people today, in our highly literate and markedly literary world...

For someone to pull it off in antiquity required a good deal more than the average amount of literary training. And training of that kind required leisure time and money, since the vast majority of people had to work very long days. [...] In the end, it seems unlikely that the uneducated, lower-class, illiterate disciples of Jesus played the decisive role in the literary compositions that have come down through history under their names.

Oh and as for me getting my facts straight, you need not worry about me, it is I worried about you.

Please, are you kidding me, you don't think that people 2000 years ago were impressed by things that would be considered trivial today!! are you joking??

Also, do you know how many prophets born of virgin births, performed miracles, and claimed to be son of god there were in that time? LOTS!

Also, the multiple authors of the bible cannot agree on anything of importance. Matthew and Luke cannot concur on the Virgin Birth or the genealogy of Jesus. They flatly contradict each other on the ''Flight into Egypt,'' Matthew saying that Joseph was ''warned in a dream'' to make an immediate escape and Luke saying that all three stayed in Bethlehem until Mary's ''purification according to the laws of Moses,'' which would make it forty days, and then went back to Nazareth via Jerusalem...The Gospel according to Luke states that the miraculous birth occurred in a year when the Emperor Caesar Augustus ordered a census for the purpose of taxation, and that this happened at a time when Herod reigned in Judaea and Quirinius was governor of Syria. That is the closest to a triangulation of historical dating that ny biblical writer even attempts. But Herod died four years ''BC,'' and during his rulership the governor of Syria was not Quirinius. There is no mention of any Augustan census by any Roman historian, but the Jewish chronicler Josephus mentions one that did occur--without the onerous requirement for people to return to their places of birth, and six years after the birth of Jesus is supposed to have taken place. This is, all of it, quite evidently a garbled and oral-based reconstruction undertaken some considerable time after the ''fact.''

-Christopher Hitchens (god is not great)

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

re: "When I pray I know that I am heard."

perhaps I'm missing something....I can't help but wonder what kind of ecclesiastical dynamics are set in motion, when one individual or group prays in direct opposition of another?

How can 'my' prayers be answered at the same time as 'your' prayers? Simplistic example: I know sports fans who 'pray' their team wins...seems like a waste of a good interface with one's creator to be preoccupied with something of such triviality....when we could be praying for world peace, food for the hungry, insight and understanding, etc....

Even moreso, if my friend is dying, and this is part of God's plan (assuming he knows what will happen before it happens), is he going to change his entire plan for my friend, her entire destiny, HIS great plan for everyone involved because I prayed and asked him to?

Wouldn't that mean he doesn't know everything before it happens? If he would change his mind based on my request, then it wasn't his plan to begin with.

[joe7777 1]

Even moreso, if my friend is dying, and this is part of God's plan (assuming he knows what will happen before it happens), is he going to change his entire plan for my friend, her entire destiny, HIS great plan for everyone involved because I prayed and asked him to?

Wouldn't that mean he doesn't know everything before it happens? If he would change his mind based on my request, then it wasn't his plan to begin with.

This fits so well with my quote, which is basically my motto of atheism.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

- Epicurus