Big Ol' Hairy Religion vs. Athiest Debate

[Chris_NJ 9]

So with that kind of logic I take it you support Fred Phelps all the way? How many soldiers have you attended their funerals and made fun of the family and tormented them?

How in the hell do you even equate what I said to that ? Are you fricking kidding me? Because atheism confuses me then I like the scumbag Fred Phelps? Wassa I hope you are being jest if not you know where you can go with that comment.

What was so difficult to understand with my thinking? Ask and don't assume............

[Chris_NJ 9]

Atheists confuse the hell out of me. Instead of believing in religion they call themselves atheists. So really all they are doing is replacing the religion label with an anti religion label. Why even bother label yourself at all? Atheists can be just as bad as religious extremists with pushing there views on people. So imo they are just the same.

I think people are miss reading my comment I bolded the key words people are leaving out. I never stated they all are. I said they can be. I think extremists in all aspects are wankers.

[green 6]

I'll try to cover all of your questions. It will cover my case, and most atheists.

1. Atheists are usually logical and reasonable people, therefore you could refer to them as skeptics. Skeptics require evidence and proof in order to believe. Ergo, ESP, near death experiences, UFO....all that stuff...we don't believe in.

2. I don't believe in afterlife, it's something that religion has made up (IN MY OPINION) I think thats why religion will also never 'die' . Because people will never grow out of their fear of death, and their need for something to reassure them in death.

3. I think if you look at life through the eyes of an atheist it's actually much grander. Much more precious, something to cherish and fulfill. (theres no second chance). I HOPE no one brings up the old morality thing, thats been done to death. If you ask dawkins, sure he me be biased, but he's one of the most brilliant minds of our day, atheism does not mean immorality.

If you have any other questions or disagree with one of my statements post a response, i'll be sure to try to do the same.

I am an atheist and my attitudes are the same as those posted by Robgoblin. I believe that this life is it and that it is over when you die. I also believe that there is a logical/scientific explanation for everything and that those answers are to be located on this, the only plane of existence.

With respect to the fear which many believers hold, the one that a trend to atheism will inevitably loosen the ties to kindness, generosity, ethical behaviour, well, that is a foolish fear. Humans are hardwired to behave well, to co-operate, for this ensures the survival of the individual and of the species. Immorality and crime rates are not higher in the Scandinavian countries, countries which report a high percentage of atheists in their populations. People do not have to be threatened by eternal damnation in order to behave in an ethical and civilized fashion.

[green 6]

Atheists confuse the hell out of me. Instead of believing in religion they call themselves atheists. So really all they are doing is replacing the religion label with an anti religion label. Why even bother label yourself at all? Atheists can be just as bad as religious extremists with pushing there views on people. So imo they are just the same.

Chris, atheists are not necessarily anti-religion though it is true that we are often suspicious of religious extremists. We are fussy about separation of church and state; and of course we are very fed up with the suicide bomber gang. An atheist is, pure and simple, an individual someone who does not believe that God (or gods) exist. Generally speaking, until the internet came into existence, atheists were not organised in the way that believers have always been. Because we don't believe in anything we don't have temples or churches of non-belief. Many of us used to spend our days of unworship sitting around in our pajamas nursing hangovers instead. :heh:

Now, I admit that I am awful curious: how were you harrassed by atheists?

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

How in the hell do you even equate what I said to that ? Are you fricking kidding me? Because atheism confuses me then I like the scumbag Fred Phelps? Wassa I hope you are being jest if not you know where you can go with that comment.

What was so difficult to understand with my thinking? Ask and don't assume............

Don't get your knickers in a twist, I quoted you. Unless you are unable to read what you wrote yourself, I can't help you.

Originally Posted by Chris_NJ

Atheists confuse the hell out of me. Instead of believing in religion they call themselves atheists. So really all they are doing is replacing the religion label with an anti religion label. Why even bother label yourself at all? Atheists can be just as bad as religious extremists with pushing there views on people. So imo they are just the same.

(emphasis my own)

[Chelle B 0]

Inspired by other & Atheist threads, I have lots of questions if anyone cares to chime in. I'm 1/2 Catholic 1/2 Atheist, no lie. I was raised with one crazy parent telling me the Bible is nothing but hypocrisy while the other one took me to church & Sunday school. Both parents had excellent points, so my beliefs waver depending on my mood, although I'm too chicken to call myself an Atheist, just in case (insurance.) Do Atheists believe in other paranormal events/things, such as hauntings, ESP, karma? What happens when an Atheists dies, do they believe in reincarnation? Why do Catholic people often say others are going to Hell on one hand, while on the other hand saying God is all-forgiving? If He's all-forgiving, doesn't that include people who don't believe in him? If God created all, and he created these intensely-thinking brains and the ability to question, analyze and conclude, isn't it hogwash that he'd want us to believe in a book based on a pregnant virgin, walking on Water, an Ark filled with talking animals (okay 2 laugh here.) Why is there a Commandment requiring us to honor our Mother and Thy Father, but there's nothing about honoring the Son and Daughter (is this why child-abuse raves rampantly?) Curious. Sorry, I can’t figure out how to correct the typo in the subject line.

I wish I had the answers for you. I have my own, very strong, beliefs; that mean something to me. However....

I honestly believe it is how you live your life that counts. You will statistically find hypocrites who are both believers and non-believers. You will find wonderful people in both arenas as well. I don't understand how some people believe anything blindly (I do understand faith, just not blind faith). I don't understand why so many people judge others based on silly criteria.

I can't answer anything from the Atheist POV. I am reading the Bible to better understand religion as a whole. Very interesting reading at that...

You may never get all the answers. You can just choose how to live your life every day. Good luck!

[joe7777 1]

Energy does not dissipate...it only reconstructs at another level.

This kind of think irks me...i dont know if you were trying to make a philosophical point or a scientific one. If you would tell this to your kids as a sort of proof like, you see science says energy is not created, it just changes forms...that really bugs me. In the sense that it is NO proof whatsoever of an after life. Yes, it reconstructs as another level...in the sense that if you choose to be incinerated, the energy stored in your body will serve in the caloric purpose of burning. If you are buried, you will likely become food for some ground dweller...your ''energy'' will transform, but not in a spiritual sense. *sorry if i read too much into that*

Also, as per the ChrisNJ quote that everyone is jumping on. I agree with a lot you guys are saying. But one it becomes a moot point is by referring to oneself as ATHEIST, not as AN atheist. Just like i wouldn't say I'm a person who doesn't believe in astology, i wouldn't need that group label. I would just say, I don't believe in astrology.

[joe7777 1]

God is all-forgiving, but you have to accept His forgiveness - by accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Sadly, religion often makes things complicated, not God. He is love, peace and forgiveness - it's people that often mess this up. After all, Christian or not, we all sin. We are all the same. So to answer your question, if one doesn't believe, then no they are not forgiven. God wants to, for He loves you. But you have to at least make the step to Him and ask forgiveness. Then you'll know peace within your soul. As for anyone telling you that you're going to hell, for any reason . . . don't bother listening to them, Christian or not. Only God can judge.

He did create those "intensely-thinking brains" but they are no better than you nor I. I've been a critical care nurse for 10 years (and in all types of nursing for over 20 years) and I've seen so many "educated" and brilliant people - but that doesn't give them special understanding of God. You can't "see" nor understand God by any scientific means - He's not something to be cataloged and placed into a drawer! No, you have to use the right tools - Christians walk, and see by faith. Regarding science, think about it . . . can you see a far away star with a microscope? Of course not, you use a telescope. And reversely, you can't view a bacterium with a telescope - seems absurd, doesn't it? You use the microscope. Do you understand what I'm saying? To see God, you must use faith - and the Holy Spirit (the presence of God within you). You can read the Bible backwards and forwards (as many scholars do) but you're not going to understand it (or His "humorous" miracles that you've listed) . . . until you believe, and have faith. The famous and beautiful spiritual song "Amazing Grace" says it correctly:

"How precious did that Grace appear, The hour I first believed."

The person in the song believed . . . it was only then they understood. You don't have the faith, you don't have the understanding. You can choose to not accept God or believe in Him - He gives you that freedom of choice - but then you will not find the answers to many of your questions.

Faith begins quite easily - by taking a simple step, even just a small prayer asking God to help you believe. He'll guide you the rest of the way. (Perhaps, you've made that first step, by posting this thread! It seems as if you are "on the fence". God may be reaching out to you). Throughout our lives, we are all on different paths and a different part of your own journey. Trust me - I wasn't always a believer either.

You can see evidence of God in the world . . . try looking at the faces of the people in the audience of this outstanding video. You can see the Holy Spirit within them. This video shows what believers feel - that we are all connected! This is my favorite video . . . have the courage to watch it all the way to the end. Listen to what Wintley Phipps has to teach!

Turn up your sound!

YouTube - Amazing Grace - Wintley Phipps

Peace!

Your soul filled with God's love - unlimited.

Forgiven - paid in full by Jesus.

Being a Christian - Priceless!

I'm sorry...I can't really take this as an argument. It's 100% apologetics. It seems like a lot of words not really saying anything. It is ignoring a lot of fact. The Bible was written by man....ages after jesus died.

Here's an example of how BAD humans are at remembering things ( ask police, the worst testimony is eye witness) *blatantly stolen from penn & teller's bullshit* There are more than 1 books out there today that have Elvis's favorite recipe's and they have 2 DIFFERENT recipes for his favorite fried chicken. Now he lived in OUR day, our modern time, and we can't get this fact straight...now how accurate could people be 2000 years ago. When they were impressionable and wrote stories about a man who had lived before their own time. When people were not literate and everything was considered a miracle.

[anonemouse 1]

Also, as per the ChrisNJ quote that everyone is jumping on. I agree with a lot you guys are saying. But one it becomes a moot point is by referring to oneself as ATHEIST, not as AN atheist. Just like i wouldn't say I'm a person who doesn't believe in astology, i wouldn't need that group label. I would just say, I don't believe in astrology.

But isn't a matter of semantics, really? I mean, what's the difference between someone that says, "I am Christian," and someone that says, "I am a Christian?" Both statements basically say, "I believe that Christ is the savior blah blah blah." Both statements have the same meaning, just slightly different wording. It doesn't matter whether you put a or an in front of your label, you're still labeling yourself.

Or am I completely misunderstanding you?

[plump_princess 1]

I respect the opinion of those who've had it with organized religion. But on the other hand, you can't say you don't believe in something that you haven't read.

eg: If I said, "I hate the NY Times", but I only hated it b/c my mother/father/friend hated it.... that's not a good reason

By the way, several scriptures in the bible explain the responsibilities of a child toward parents and miracles are 1/100th of what the bible is... it's a guide for living, and understanding the universe that was created for us.

It gives counsel on relationships, child-rearing, dealing with anxiety and life, and helps us understand our purpose. Without the bible and its instruction, well...... just look at what's happening to America's youth....

My challenge to those who say they don't believe is... try it.

Why is it that people "believe" what they see in the news, but can't believe that the Earth, or humans, as intricate as they are, have a creator?

If you saw a watch on table, it'd be foolish to assume that it just came together by "accident"........ so how in the world could a baby be created by chance? THAT is unreasonable....

[gadgetlady 4]

I'm sorry...I can't really take this as an argument. It's 100% apologetics. It seems like a lot of words not really saying anything. It is ignoring a lot of fact. The Bible was written by man....ages after jesus died.

Here's an example of how BAD humans are at remembering things ( ask police, the worst testimony is eye witness) *blatantly stolen from penn & teller's bullshit* There are more than 1 books out there today that have Elvis's favorite recipe's and they have 2 DIFFERENT recipes for his favorite fried chicken. Now he lived in OUR day, our modern time, and we can't get this fact straight...now how accurate could people be 2000 years ago. When they were impressionable and wrote stories about a man who had lived before their own time. When people were not literate and everything was considered a miracle.

Here's a great article about Biblical accuracy. I strongly recommend reading it fully. Stand to Reason: Is the New Testament Text Reliable?

[anonemouse 1]

I respect the opinion of those who've had it with organized religion. But on the other hand, you can't say you don't believe in something that you haven't read.

eg: If I said, "I hate the NY Times", but I only hated it b/c my mother/father/friend hated it.... that's not a good reason

By the way, several scriptures in the bible explain the responsibilities of a child toward parents and miracles are 1/100th of what the bible is... it's a guide for living, and understanding the universe that was created for us.

It gives counsel on relationships, child-rearing, dealing with anxiety and life, and helps us understand our purpose. Without the bible and its instruction, well...... just look at what's happening to America's youth....

My challenge to those who say they don't believe is... try it.

Why is it that people "believe" what they see in the news, but can't believe that the Earth, or humans, as intricate as they are, have a creator?

If you saw a watch on table, it'd be foolish to assume that it just came together by "accident"........ so how in the world could a baby be created by chance? THAT is unreasonable....

You're assuming that people that don't believe haven't read the Bible, gone to church, etc., and that's far from the case, in most situations. In fact, most Atheists that I've been in contact with are far more educated about religion than most religious people are. The reason for that is because they want to understand why people actually believe it, so they try and gather as much information as they can. They just don't believe it. Not because they've not read or educated themselves, but just because they don't believe it. Period.

A baby is not created by chance. A zygote is. A baby is created by millions and billions of cellular divisions. How is it unreasonable to think that when a couple has sex, there is a likelihood of a sperm coming into contact with an egg? Chance is all it is. A woman doesn't get pregnant every time she has sex, does she? When you have unprotected sex, you are taking the chance that you just might be ovulating.

[anonemouse 1]

And the fact is, evolution is anything BUT "accidental." Selection is the opposite of chance, people.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I respect the opinion of those who've had it with organized religion. But on the other hand, you can't say you don't believe in something that you haven't read.

eg: If I said, "I hate the NY Times", but I only hated it b/c my mother/father/friend hated it.... that's not a good reason

By the way, several scriptures in the bible explain the responsibilities of a child toward parents and miracles are 1/100th of what the bible is... it's a guide for living, and understanding the universe that was created for us.

It gives counsel on relationships, child-rearing, dealing with anxiety and life, and helps us understand our purpose. Without the bible and its instruction, well...... just look at what's happening to America's youth....

My challenge to those who say they don't believe is... try it.

Why is it that people "believe" what they see in the news, but can't believe that the Earth, or humans, as intricate as they are, have a creator?

If you saw a watch on table, it'd be foolish to assume that it just came together by "accident"........ so how in the world could a baby be created by chance? THAT is unreasonable....

Are you under the impression that atheists have not read the bible? I know more atheists that have read the darn thing cover to cover than I do Christians. I know more atheists that know the bible well including the history of the bible vs. Christians. Christians are typically comfortable having someone explain it to them in church every few Sundays. Atheists tend to read it for themselves. I have, actually I was Christian when I read it and that is one of the biggest reasons I am now atheist.

What if you read the Koran? Would you want to convert to that belief? That is what you are saying, right?

Not everyone is into faith. Not everyone feels that faith is something to be respected. Would you pick your retirement investments based on the same kind of faith as you have in your religion? Of course not. Many atheists feel that way about faith, period.

I don't know that anyone hates the bible, at least I haven't read that. Just because one does not believe in your God that does not mean they hate your God. It's a bit tough to hate something that doesn't exist and that is our perspective.

Someone else here wrote the phrase "anti-religion people" or something similar. Atheism does not mean anti-religion. It means lacking a belief in a god. Just because someone does not have the same faith as you or just because they do not believe in your god... that is not the same as hating the same.

I agree, it would be foolish to assume the watch put itself together. Can you see why it is foolish to atheists that a god put himself together? I could create a watchmaker that I have "faith" in and assume that since I don't know who put that watch together and someone had to do it, he did. Then I could write a book all about him, give him a name, etc. Does that make it real? Maybe a machine put the watch together. But just because I don't know how the watch was put together doesn't mean I HAVE to have an answer. Maybe "I don't know" is acceptable sometimes vs. coming up with something, anything, calling it faith, and devoting your life to it.

As for the bible, many believe it is a good source of guidance but I disagree. I see wayyy too much of a lack of morality, killing sprees, revenge, and assorted nonsense to have a great deal of respect for it. People that were primitive in science and technology wrote it and quite frankly, it's silly from my point of view.

[green 6]

Here's a great article about Biblical accuracy. I strongly recommend reading it fully. Stand to Reason: Is the New Testament Text Reliable?

My favourite atheist website for an in depth analysis of Biblical text is Evil Bible Home Page The site also has an interesting forum where one can discuss such questions as evolution vs creationism and whether Jesus actually existed or not. A few of the members do read ancient Greek and Hebrew and have studied Biblical source materials in those languages. It is an entertaining and informative site for those who are curious.