Why are people afraid of atheism?

[MrsFlipFlops 2]

Did you look at the link that I provided as well?

If we can't define what a miracle is, there's no point to having this conversation. Just forget it and let's move on to another topic. I'm looking for conversation, not an argument.

[MrsFlipFlops 2]

I realized just now how that last post kind of sounded. I apologize. I get frustrated at the constant sarcasm...

But seriously, we can move on to another topic.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I realized just now how that last post kind of sounded. I apologize. I get frustrated at the constant sarcasm...

But seriously, we can move on to another topic.

But I wasn't being sarcastic, I was dead serious. You brought it up, you wanted to discuss miracles, and then you bring a story of a guy that had a really bad accident, obtained medical care, and got better. That's not a miracle.

Do you have a verifiable story of someone growing a new leg after a tractor accident? Honestly, no sarcasm intended. I'm looking for a true miracle.

[plain 12]

I have noticed that although 1/3 of the world is Christian as soon as someoen points out when anyone of those 2.2 billion people does something bad it is decided that they weren't really Christians. I guess saying you are a Christian only counts when you need some stats to validate a point of view.

I guess I'm missing the point here. Is it that Christians seek to "distance" themselves from a scandal? Because how is that any different from, say, any politician?

Or are you trying to imply that Christians think themselves perfect? That by accepting Christ, we are incapable of doing anything "bad"?

[plain 12]

I do love you however and hope that you are able to one day achieve rational thought. You can not know how wonderful it is to be able to think for yourself and begin to understand the exciting complexity of the universe.

Great. The world needs love and independant thinking. Or were you being facetious?

[TommyO 5]

In reply to post 1 to an much earlier post by me, you are correct, you are missing the point.

On reply 2, I will leave that to you to decide but I bet you are the only one who doesn't know the answer to that question.

[brandyII 9]

What about the French Saint Bernadette whose body was never embalmed but her body was exhumed three times during the process of beatification and she was pretty much perfectly preserved?????? I've seen it in news shows and it's pretty darn creepy!!

Sorry it's my Catholic upbringing, miracles are a big part of the Catholic Church and they take them very seriously!

I need a miracle every day!

[Fanny Adams 7]

With all the discussion about "proving" that there is a God, I do have one question.

I've always believed that my belief in God goes hand in hand with science. But if we take God out of the equation, how does science explain the concept of "miracles"?

I ask because I believe, when I see or hear of a miracle, that's proof to me that God exists and that He loves us. But from a purely scientific standpoint- how is that explained?

I'm not trying to be confrontational here... I honestly am looking for honest and thoughtful responses.

Personally, I think the concept of the power of prayer and the existance of miracles is one of the most powerful arguments around for the NON existance of God. It goes like this:

1. God is supposed to be "All Powerful" and "All Loving". We are told "God is Good", "God is Love" and "God is Truth".
   
2. God has apparently promised us through his Word that he will grant prayers - "Ask and ye shall receive..."
   
3. Devout people throughout all the ages have called upon God to grant them prayers. This has included pious nuns getting dragged out of their sacked convents to be raped and murdered and begging their God to save them, distraught parents pleading for the life of a beloved child on his/her death bed and shallow fools wanting to win their weekend football match.
   
4. Of all these prayers, God apparently grants a miracle to some and denies it to others. Some claim the piousness of the prayer-maker affects his decision, others say he loves all of his children equally. Either way, there is no apparent rhyme or reason to the objective observer as to why some prayers are granted, yet others are not.
   
5. In failing to answer some prayers, God proves himself a liar in promising that all prayers will be answered.
   
6. Ahhh...but God does answer all prayers, say the devout. He just doesn't always do it in a way that can be recognised. He answers prayers not to suit our desires but to further his "Great Plan" for the world.
   
7. If you are promised that you will receive all that you ask for, then you ask for a loaf but are given a stone on the pretext that he knows what is better for you, how is that keeping the promise that was made? This is not the action of a "Truthful God", this is the weaseling distortions of a liar.
   
8. But his plan for this world is beyond our puny human understanding and it may be that it serves his purpose in some unknowable way for those nuns to be raped and murdered, for that baby to die in his mother's arms.
   
9. If this is true, then God is either a capricious monster, answering prayers based upon some hidden whim, or he is a heartless monster, who doesn't hesitate to abandon his faithful to an horrifically painful death to further his own obscure agenda.
   
10. What lesson is learned by allowing his chosen to be slaughtered, by ignoring the grief of his followers, that can outweigh the pain that he allows to occur by not granting prayers in the form in which they are requested? This is not the action of a Loving God, by any definition of the word "Loving" that I can understand.
    

In conclusion, IF God exists and IF he has the power to grant prayer and perform miracles, THEN with every prayer he leaves unanswered and every miracle he leaves unperformed, he proves himself to be a capricious, heartless, lying monster. THAT is the antithesis of the God that described in his Word, and the entire concept falls down like the house of cards that it is.

Edited May 15, 2008 by Fanny Adams

[plain 12]

How can you continue to insist that you feel the insults more personally because you are a Christian when people are telling you that they feel them deeply too?

I don't think that's what she was trying to say, Mac. She takes insults that are specifically directed towards Christians, or God more personally because she is emotionally invested in that topic. You yourself support this with your example of being in Hawaii. See, if that lady had called me a "haole" and then insisted it meant nothing.....fine by me. But it bothered you because you had some investment there, correct? (I'm not familiar with the word, but in the context of your example, I'm assuming it's a racial slur).

It's the same thing with scientists and global warming. If you say to certain meterologists that global warming is a myth, they get very angry. They take it more personally. If somebody says to me that global warming is a myth, I would take it less personally.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Personally, I think the concept of the power of prayer and the existance of miracles is one of the most powerful arguments around for the NON existance of God. It goes like this:

1. God is supposed to be "All Powerful" and "All Loving". We are told "God is Good", "God is Love" and "God is Truth".
   
2. God has apparently promised us through his Word that he will grant prayers - "Ask and ye shall receive..."
   
3. Devout people throughout all the ages have called upon God to grant them prayers. This has included pious nuns getting dragged out of their sacked convents to be raped and murdered and begging their God to save them, distraught parents pleading for the life of a beloved child on his/her death bed and shallow fools wanting to win their weekend football match.
   
4. Of all these prayers, God apparently grants a miracle to some and denies it to others. Some claim the piousness of the prayer-maker affects his decision, others say he loves all of his children equally. Either way, there is no apparent rhyme or reason to the objective observer as to why some prayers are granted, yet others are not.
   
5. In failing to answer some prayers, God proves himself a liar in promising that all prayers will be answered.
   
6. Ahhh...but God does answer all prayers, say the devout. He just doesn't always do it in a way that can be recognised. He answers prayers not to suit our desires but to further his "Great Plan" for the world.
   
7. If you are promised that you will receive all that you ask for, then you ask for a loaf but are given a stone on the pretext that he knows what is better for you, how is that keeping the promise that was made? This is not the action of a "Truthful God", this is the weaseling distortions of a liar.
   
8. But his plan for this world is beyond our puny human understanding and it may be that it serves his purpose in some unknowable way for those nuns to be raped and murdered, for that baby to die in his mother's arms.
   
9. If this is true, then God is either a capricious monster, answering prayers based upon some hidden whim, or he is a heartless monster, who doesn't hesitate to abandon his faithful to an horrifically painful death to further his own obscure agenda.
   
10. What lesson is learned by allowing his chosen to be slaughtered, by ignoring the grief of his followers, that can outweigh the pain that he allows to occur by not granting prayers in the form in which they are requested? This is not the action of a Loving God, by any definition of the word "Loving" that I can understand.
    

In conclusion, IF God exists and IF he has the power to grant prayer and perform miracles, THEN with every prayer he leaves unanswered and every miracle he leaves unperformed, he proves himself to be a capricious, heartless, lying monster. THAT is the antithesis of the God that described in his Word, and the entire concept falls down like the house of cards that it is.

See.... I don't get the whole prayer thing. I makes no sense to me.

If it is true that the Christian god knows everything before it happens, then really, what good does prayer do?

If he knows he's going to save a baby from a train wreck, then people praying asking for him to save the baby really isn't going to do any good. He was going to do it anyway.

And this great plan he has, if he already knows what he is going to do before he does it, and if the plan is set and in motion, then what good is prayer going to do anyway? If the plan is set, all the begging, pleading, and prayer aren't going to change anything. He knows what he is going to do before the act requires action on his part. So where is the value in prayer? Is someone praying to him going to make him change his huge plan? He is going to change his mind about everything because someone said a prayer? If that is the case, then he does not know everything because he didn't know he was going to change his plan because someone prayed asking.

I find it all very confusing.

[brandyII 9]

Wasa

If you take God of the scenario then prayer is a type of meditation that can be effective in many positive ways. If you have an issue it may help you sort it out. Placing God back into the scenario has the same effect. It depends on the person and the goal of their prayer but prayer is not always a plea bargaining tool or asking for something. But I think you know that already because from what I can tell from reading your posts you're a very intelligent person!

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I don't think that's what she was trying to say, Mac. She takes insults that are specifically directed towards Christians, or God more personally because she is emotionally invested in that topic. You yourself support this with your example of being in Hawaii. See, if that lady had called me a "haole" and then insisted it meant nothing.....fine by me. But it bothered you because you had some investment there, correct? (I'm not familiar with the word, but in the context of your example, I'm assuming it's a racial slur).

It's the same thing with scientists and global warming. If you say to certain meterologists that global warming is a myth, they get very angry. They take it more personally. If somebody says to me that global warming is a myth, I would take it less personally.

Plain...

We see what she is saying, she isn't seeing what we are saying.

Do you suppose it is easy to be an atheist in today's society? Most hide it, they have to. It's not nice to discuss atheism in front of others, everyone takes offense. They ask why we lack belief and when we tell them they are insulted.

You know, I was raised Roman Catholic. It's no easy task to go from Catholic to atheist. I remember many years ago I was seriously struggling with my faith. I wanted to believe, but none of it made a bit of sense.

So I started reading the bible. To be honest, the more I seriously studied the bible the more I realized I could no longer force myself to believe in Christianity. I was horrified by what I was reading, there was no way I could call any of that morality.

So here I am, a Catholic with no faith. So I went out searching for a God I could believe in. I attended every church, I did it all. I even took the spiffy little classes to become Jewish. That didn't work out either because no matter how hard I tried I couldn't believe any of that either.

Then came New Age. I was a true blue New Age Twinkie.

Finally, one day it hit me. I really don't believe in this stuff. I can't force myself to believe and I can no longer trick myself into believing. I lack belief. I dawned on me that this makes me an atheist.

Atheism is not something anyone strives to be, it's not like that. It's more like... one day you get down and dirty honest with yourself and you realize, admit, and accept that you are an atheist. We don't "choose" to not believe, that's silly. Belief is either there or it isn't. If I tell you that Santa Claus is real, do you "choose" to believe it or do you simply know it isn't true? It's not a choice, either you believe Santa is real or you don't.

It took me 20 years to undo the Catholic upbringing and get a grip on what my feelings really are and what my opinions are. I was fighting with myself tooth and nail struggling to force myself to believe. Twenty years, Plain.

Then some Christian comes along and tells me that my fight of 20 years means nothing if someone believes that is ignorant. Instead, she is Christian so the slams and insults mean more.

They don't mean more, slams and insults are just that. I don't care if you struggled for 20 years to maintain belief or if you struggled for 20 years to GET some level of belief, we are all made up of our own history.

I'm not really sure if it is harder to believe in the impossible or if it is harder to be honest with those around you and admit you are an atheist. And nope, not being sarcastic. I'm dead serious.

So this claim that idiot means more to her than it does to us... it's crap. Nothing more, nothing less.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Wasa

If you take God of the scenario then prayer is a type of meditation that can be effective in many positive ways. If you have an issue it may help you sort it out. Placing God back into the scenario has the same effect. It depends on the person and the goal of their prayer but prayer is not always a plea bargaining tool or asking for something. But I think you know that already because from what I can tell from reading your posts you're a very intelligent person!

I am referring to the kind of prayer where someone asks their God for a favor of sorts. Save the baby from the train wreck kind of question.

Take God out of the scenario, who are you asking to save the baby?

I understand meditation, I did a great deal of it as a twinkie. Did the chants and all! ;o) But if you ask God to do something either he says no, or if he does it then he was going to do it anyway so what's the point? If he does change the great cosmic plan, then he doesn't know everything before it happens because prayer made him change his mind about the plan.

[plain 12]

I cannot explain for all religions (or even all denominations of Christianity), but I believe that:

Prayer is talking to God, and sometimes listening to God. It's not a cosmic catalog to ask for "stuff". As for influencing the will of God....only God Himself knows what He will or won't do.

[Fanny Adams 7]

So why did he say "Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened unto thee"? If that was actually said by a real being, then it's a lie.