Why are people afraid of atheism?

[anonemouse 1]

The ACLU is not against Christmas. The ACLU is against situations where Chtristmas appears to be endorsed by the state as the "official" state holiday.

The "prayer in school" people never seem to understand this point. Prayer-in-school advocates say things like, "we are the majority by a huge margin, why should a few members of minority groups be allowed to stop us from exercising our beliefs?" They also say that "people of other religious minorities can just ignore the prayer in the classroom if they are not interested," etc.

But what is not understood by prayer-in-school advocates is that this country is not about "majority rule." Rather, this country is about "individual freedom," and about protecting an environment that treats every single law abiding person as equal, and of equal worth in the eyes of society. That is what is special about our way of life in the United States. That is why the separation of church and state is so central to our core values.

When one group with its own particular beliefs acts like it has the "officially endorsed" version of the truth, then those who have minority beliefs are ostracized from mainstream society, and made to feel like outsiders, and less worthy in the eyes of society. I can tell you that I am profoundly offended by any hint of "officially endorsed" Christian prayer in a state sponsored environment. Of course, I am not the least bit offended by Christian prayer in a religious setting. Some of my best friends are Christians, as the saying goes.

The ACLU is about protecting religious freedom. Their actions have nothing at all to do with an "attack on Christmas."

Ditto. I always explain it this way:

• 
  
• Are we living in the United States? Check.
  
• Doesn't the United States have a Constitution? Check.
  
• Doesn't that Constitution have a clause in the Bill of Rights that basically says that the government shall not show favoritism towards one religion? Check.
  
• Wouldn't my tax dollars going towards the creation and maintenance of a Christian manger scene on the lawn of my local courthouse be showing favoritism towards the Christian religion? Check.
  
• Is that a violation of the Constitution? Check.

I don't understand why people don't understand that. We have a Constitution for a reason. Shouldn't we actually follow what it says? Put up a manger scene or a menorah on your own lawn, but don't use MY tax dollars to put it on public, governement property in a violation of our Constitution. Hey, if you want to have the Constitution changed, more power to you. Lobbying your politicians is your right. But while the Constitution does say what it does, let's follow it.

[green 6]

The ACLU is not against Christmas. The ACLU is against situations where Chtristmas appears to be endorsed by the state as the "official" state holiday.

The "prayer in school" people never seem to understand this point. Prayer-in-school advocates say things like, "we are the majority by a huge margin, why should a few members of minority groups be allowed to stop us from exercising our beliefs?" They also say that "people of other religious minorities can just ignore the prayer in the classroom if they are not interested," etc.

But what is not understood by prayer-in-school advocates is that this country is not about "majority rule." Rather, this country is about "individual freedom," and about protecting an environment that treats every single law abiding person as equal, and of equal worth in the eyes of society. That is what is special about our way of life in the United States. That is why the separation of church and state is so central to our core values.

When one group with its own particular beliefs acts like it has the "officially endorsed" version of the truth, then those who have minority beliefs are ostracized from mainstream society, and made to feel like outsiders, and less worthy in the eyes of society. I can tell you that I am profoundly offended by any hint of "officially endorsed" Christian prayer in a state sponsored environment. Of course, I am not the least bit offended by Christian prayer in a religious setting. Some of my best friends are Christians, as the saying goes.

The ACLU is about protecting religious freedom. Their actions have nothing at all to do with an "attack on Christmas."

This sounds utterly reasonable to me. I know that it would creep me out if there were prayers in our public school system or in any state environment. Prayers have a place and this would be in one's home and in one's church. Evicting Christmas, on the other hand, an event which is as much, if not more, a part of our culture is quite different. This is what is happening up here in Ontario, Canada. School teachers are required to replace mention of Christmas with talk about the (neutralized phrase) "winter holidays!"

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

This sounds utterly reasonable to me. I know that it would creep me out if there were prayers in our public school system or in any state environment. Prayers have a place and this would be in one's home and in one's church. Evicting Christmas, on the other hand, an event which is as much, if not more, a part of our culture is quite different. This is what is happening up here in Ontario, Canada. School teachers are required to replace mention of Christmas with talk about the (neutralized phrase) "winter holidays!"

Children in public schools are free to pray as much as they wish. The schools are simply not permitted to lead the prayer. The kids can form church groups, pray on campus, etc. The school staff merely can't get involved and it can't be forced on any kid.

I think that is more than reasonable and that is why I don't understand those with their knickers in a twist because of supposedly having no prayer in school. It can't be crammed down the throat of an unwilling child. What's the big deal with some people?

[marjon9 6]

This sounds utterly reasonable to me. I know that it would creep me out if there were prayers in our public school system or in any state environment. Prayers have a place and this would be in one's home and in one's church. Evicting Christmas, on the other hand, an event which is as much, if not more, a part of our culture is quite different. This is what is happening up here in Ontario, Canada. School teachers are required to replace mention of Christmas with talk about the (neutralized phrase) "winter holidays!"

I know, that is the argument we hear over and over. That Christmas is cultural. But it is not only cultural. That's the point. This is one area where "political correctness" is called for. Fine, have your "cultural" Christmas displays, but have them in combination with the displays of other religions as well. Other religions are part of the "culture" of the United States as well as Christianity. The fact that there are more Christians than followers of other religions is beside the point. This is not about majority rule. This is about respect for individual freedom. When religion is presented in a state-sponsored environment, it is unacceptable to me to have the holiday of one particular religion put forth as "the norm." Christmas has a cultural element, but it also has a religious element. The two cannot be separated. When government buildings are all decked out in Christmas finery on the ground that this is "cultural," it ignores the message that is inevitably implied: that Christianity is the "correct" religion. This is offensive to me, and it gives a message that I am not a fully equal member of society.

I'm not sure if this is a "Canadian/U.S." distinction, but this in the U.S. this has not been a hard issue for our Courts to figure out in this country. Under our Constitution, state-sponsored Christmas displays are unacceptable, whether or not they are labeled "cultural," unless balanced with displays of other religions. And "thank God" for that, if you'll pardon the expression.

[green 6]

I know, that is the argument we hear over and over. That Christmas is cultural. But it is not only cultural. That's the point. This is one area where "political correctness" is called for. Fine, have your "cultural" Christmas displays, but have them in combination with the displays of other religions as well. Other religions are part of the "culture" of the United States as well as Christianity. The fact that there are more Christians than followers of other religions is beside the point. This is not about majority rule. This is about respect for individual freedom. When religion is presented in a state-sponsored environment, it is unacceptable to me to have the holiday of one particular religion put forth as "the norm." Christmas has a cultural element, but it also has a religious element. The two cannot be separated. When government buildings are all decked out in Christmas finery on the ground that this is "cultural," it ignores the message that is inevitably implied: that Christianity is the "correct" religion. This is offensive to me, and it gives a message that I am not a fully equal member of society.

I'm not sure if this is a "Canadian/U.S." distinction, but this in the U.S. this has not been a hard issue for our Courts to figure out in this country. Under our Constitution, state-sponsored Christmas displays are unacceptable, whether or not they are labeled "cultural," unless balanced with displays of other religions. And "thank God" for that, if you'll pardon the expression.

Our recent uproars have all hinged on Christmas trees, lights, and the red and green stuff, certainly nothing so Christ-specific as creches. A judge demanded that a decorated tree in the lobby of a Toronto courthouse be removed; the tree was removed and many letters of complaint were sent in to the local and national newspapers concerning her behaviour. There was also the instance of a Jewish man, noting the Christmas decorations in the Vancouver airport (again, no creches, just the green and red stuff), mentioned that it would be nice to see Channukah decorations, too. He was, it seems, mortified when his suggestion resulted in the Christmas decorations being removed.

As to being sensitive to the rights of minorities, the rights of minorities are officially ensured by the Canadian Charter of Rights. (In fact it was thanks to the Charter of Rights that homosexuals, a minority, now have the right to marry.) Almost 20% of our population is foreign born and the top five non-official languages (i.e. neither French nor English) in Canada are Chinese dialects, Punjabi, Spanish, Italian, and Arabic. Urban Canadians are accustomed to living in ethnically diverse environments; for us it is the norm. Public school teachers here never talk about religion outside of the framework of that which is also cultural such as Ramadan, Eid, Diwalli, etc. These events are also covered by our local media. The idea is that we all belong here and that we all are likely to find what our neighbours are doing of interest.

[marjon9 6]

Our recent uproars have all hinged on Christmas trees, lights, and the red and green stuff, certainly nothing so Christ-specific as creches. A judge demanded that a decorated tree in the lobby of a Toronto courthouse be removed; the tree was removed and many letters of complaint were sent in to the local and national newspapers concerning her behaviour. There was also the instance of a Jewish man, noting the Christmas decorations in the Vancouver airport (again, no creches, just the green and red stuff), mentioned that it would be nice to see Channukah decorations, too. He was, it seems, mortified when his suggestion resulted in the Christmas decorations being removed.

As to being sensitive to the rights of minorities, the rights of minorities are officially ensured by the Canadian Charter of Rights. (In fact it was thanks to the Charter of Rights that homosexuals, a minority, now have the right to marry.) Almost 20% of our population is foreign born and the top five non-official languages (i.e. neither French nor English) in Canada are Chinese dialects, Punjabi, Spanish, Italian, and Arabic. Urban Canadians are accustomed to living in ethnically diverse environments; for us it is the norm. Public school teachers here never talk about religion outside of the framework of that which is also cultural such as Ramadan, Eid, Diwalli, etc. These events are also covered by our local media. The idea is that we all belong here and that we all are likely to find what our neighbours are doing of interest.

From what you say it sounds like the Canadian system actively protects the separation of church and state to the same degree it is done here. That's great news. As for me, I love Christmas decorations. We usually do quite a nice tree at my house, as well, because my wife is Christian. I hope to see Christmas decorations every place they can be all through the winter holiday season, including government buildings, courthouses, public squares, whatever, just as long as there are also decorations from other religions.

On a related note, we have a bit of a scary development in our presidential race right now. Apparently Mike Huckabee has taken a big lead in the Iowa race. Huckabee is an impressive, down to earth guy who says a lot of intelligent things. But he is also a Baptist Minister and he has publicly stated in recent presidential debates that he does not believe in evolution. He also said in the past that he believes homosexuality is a sin, and that AIDs proves it, and that AIDs sufferers should be quarantined. This guy might actually win the Republican nomination for president. If that does not send shivers down your spine, what will? Fortunately people are so disgusted with Bush that it seems likely that a Democrat will probably win the presidency this time, but you never know. But just the thought that a large number of Americans would be inclined to elect a president who believes in creationism is simply breathtaking.

[DerickM 1]

I prayed plenty during tests anyway.

[green 6]

From what you say it sounds like the Canadian system actively protects the separation of church and state to the same degree it is done here. That's great news. As for me, I love Christmas decorations. We usually do quite a nice tree at my house, as well, because my wife is Christian. I hope to see Christmas decorations every place they can be all through the winter holiday season, including government buildings, courthouses, public squares, whatever, just as long as there are also decorations from other religions.

On a related note, we have a bit of a scary development in our presidential race right now. Apparently Mike Huckabee has taken a big lead in the Iowa race. Huckabee is an impressive, down to earth guy who says a lot of intelligent things. But he is also a Baptist Minister and he has publicly stated in recent presidential debates that he does not believe in evolution. He also said in the past that he believes homosexuality is a sin, and that AIDs proves it, and that AIDs sufferers should be quarantined. This guy might actually win the Republican nomination for president. If that does not send shivers down your spine, what will? Fortunately people are so disgusted with Bush that it seems likely that a Democrat will probably win the presidency this time, but you never know. But just the thought that a large number of Americans would be inclined to elect a president who believes in creationism is simply breathtaking.

Marjon, Canada is culturally quite different from the United States. We are much more secular in spirit than you are. We do not have religious figures who act as unelected policy advisors to our elected officials in the way that you have your Billy Grahams, etc. Such folk would not be accepted by the Canadian people. Indeed, just as those individuals running for president must show their religious street cred in order to be considered as acceptable candidates our leaders must avoid all public mention of their spiritual beliefs, if any. No mention of religious affiliation is ever provided as part of a campaign and the media generally speaking do not discuss this aspect of the candidates. It is considered irrelevant, inappropriate and a potential liability.

[marjon9 6]

Marjon, Canada is culturally quite different from the United States. We are much more secular in spirit than you are. We do not have religious figures who act as unelected policy advisors to our elected officials in the way that you have your Billy Grahams, etc. Such folk would not be accepted by the Canadian people. Indeed, just as those individuals running for president must show their religious street cred in order to be considered as acceptable candidates our leaders must avoid all public mention of their spiritual beliefs, if any. No mention of religious affiliation is ever provided as part of a campaign and the media generally speaking do not discuss this aspect of the candidates. It is considered irrelevant, inappropriate and a potential liability.

Sounds like my kind of place.

[transformer 1]

Hee, hee!

I hate to break it to those of you who don't think there's prayer in public schools! There's TONS of praying goin' on all over the place!

The principal is praying hard that she'll make it to another Friday. :amen:

The teacher is praying that she won't get fired when students flunk the state assessment. :help:

The music teacher is praying the community won't have a fit over the school's "Songs of the Winter Season Non-Denominational, Non-Religious Student Performance that is Not at All to Be Confused with Anything Remotely Christmas Related—Heaven Forbid!" :faint:

The kid is praying that he'll pass his spelling test. :pray:

The class nerd is praying he won't get stuffed into a trash can. :nerd:

The captain of the cheerleading squad is praying she won't get a huge zit on the end of her nose before her big date with the captain of the football team. :cheer2:

The class rock star is praying he lands an awesome gig on Saturday night. :rockon:

The school counselor is praying that the depressed student she's been working closely with hasn't decided to gun down his/her classmates.

The school nurse is praying that no one contracts MRSA. :sick

The girl who just had sex with her boyfriend last night is praying she isn’t pregnant. :preggers:

The assistant principal is praying that there won't be a mountain of behavior referrals in his "in" box today. :purplebananna:

Sorry to inject such brazen levity into this otherwise serious thread...I've had to do work I brought home all day today, so I have effectively lost my mind by now!

[lindata 1]

(In fact it was thanks to the Charter of Rights that homosexuals, a minority, now have the right to marry.) Almost 20% of our population is foreign born and the top five non-official languages (i.e. neither French nor English) in Canada are Chinese dialects, Punjabi, Spanish, Italian, and Arabic. Urban Canadians are accustomed to living in ethnically diverse environments; for us it is the norm. Public school teachers here never talk about religion outside of the framework of that which is also cultural such as Ramadan, Eid, Diwalli, etc. These events are also covered by our local media. The idea is that we all belong here and that we all are likely to find what our neighbours are doing of interest.

Sniff sniff - I miss Canada. :think

As far as religion goes - I don't get why people can't see there are BAD PEOPLE and there are GOOD PEOPLE. It doesn't matter what religion you are. Who cares what God people pray to? Does it really matter? I don't get it. Why are there WARS over this?

There are many religions that are way older than Christianity and yet they are not deemed valid by Christians? Why? And vice versa with other religions. I don't get why people can't just practise their religion A, let other people practise their religion B, and everybody just give peace a chance. :kiss2:

[kacee 3]

You guys come up with some great stuff. I guess you could say I am kindof an agnostic of sorts. As a teenager I balked at my organized Christian religion. I couldn't stomach watching people parade around in their finest duds to impress each other, profess their believes and then go about their lives belittling those who did not feel exactly the same way they did. I couldn't stand an organized group of people whose idea of a successful religion was sitting in a gold-leafed tower wearing velvet robes and building more gold-leafed towers. My feelings were further reinforced when I met a load of Catholics later in life and saw the damage that had been done to many of them by their organized religion (not their God, mind you). As far as I am concerned, anything in religion touched by man is suspect. That includes the Bible. Men are mortal and fallable, given to their own whims and devices and agendas. There were plenty of charlatans in the days of yore, and there are plenty of them now. Religion is a profitable business for the power hungry, always has been and always will be. I do not claim any religion for myself. Yes, I feel there is a supreme entity somewhere. He can be God or Yahweh or Alla....or dare I say it...yes....the Flying Sphagetti Monster. A rose by any other name will smell as sweet. My idea of a good religion is the simpler the better. No robes, no books, no candles and incense, no "divine conduit" who is the "one and only person" I can talk to my God through, no beads and chants and statues. Don't tell me I can't wear blue on Wednesdays because God disapproves. Don't say I have to dance a jig and recite a haiku backwards to talk to my God. My God is nature....leaves and sky and fresh air and laying in the grass on a cool day...a red sunset and a rainstorm and the myriad of miracles before our eyes. I rejoice in them and appreciate their beauty and wonder. I consider man to be the height of narcissistic to assume that his God has picked him out from any other amoeba on the planet for his "special purpose" or has decided that he alone and all his clan will get a "Get out of jail free" card and ticket to the 40 virgin club in a next life.... Pretty much everything we humans have touched has turned to crap over the span of time (mostly in the name of God, I might add)....despite ourselves, this is still a wondrous world...if we'd just get our meddling hands out of the mix.

[phyllisc 0]

You guys come up with some great stuff. I guess you could say I am kindof an agnostic of sorts. As a teenager I balked at my organized Christian religion. I couldn't stomach watching people parade around in their finest duds to impress each other, profess their believes and then go about their lives belittling those who did not feel exactly the same way they did. I couldn't stand an organized group of people whose idea of a successful religion was sitting in a gold-leafed tower wearing velvet robes and building more gold-leafed towers. My feelings were further reinforced when I met a load of Catholics later in life and saw the damage that had been done to many of them by their organized religion (not their God, mind you). As far as I am concerned, anything in religion touched by man is suspect. That includes the Bible. Men are mortal and fallable, given to their own whims and devices and agendas. There were plenty of charlatans in the days of yore, and there are plenty of them now. Religion is a profitable business for the power hungry, always has been and always will be. I do not claim any religion for myself. Yes, I feel there is a supreme entity somewhere. He can be God or Yahweh or Alla....or dare I say it...yes....the Flying Sphagetti Monster. A rose by any other name will smell as sweet. My idea of a good religion is the simpler the better. No robes, no books, no candles and incense, no "divine conduit" who is the "one and only person" I can talk to my God through, no beads and chants and statues. Don't tell me I can't wear blue on Wednesdays because God disapproves. Don't say I have to dance a jig and recite a haiku backwards to talk to my God. My God is nature....leaves and sky and fresh air and laying in the grass on a cool day...a red sunset and a rainstorm and the myriad of miracles before our eyes. I rejoice in them and appreciate their beauty and wonder. I consider man to be the height of narcissistic to assume that his God has picked him out from any other amoeba on the planet for his "special purpose" or has decided that he alone and all his clan will get a "Get out of jail free" card and ticket to the 40 virgin club in a next life.... Pretty much everything we humans have touched has turned to crap over the span of time (mostly in the name of God, I might add)....despite ourselves, this is still a wondrous world...if we'd just get our meddling hands out of the mix.

Yup, you said it......

I could have been one of those Catholics, except I realized early on, probably in the second grade that I wasn't buying any of it. I remember the nun lining all the girls up and asking who wanted to be a nun when they grew up. I was the only one who didn't or at least honest enough to admit it. That thought just horrified me.

I am content to not know if there is a god or not. Being or striving to be a good human is enough for me and I don't need any of the trappings or labels. I do strongly believe that everyone should believe any way they want and it is no one elses business.

[marjon9 6]

Yup, you said it......

I could have been one of those Catholics, except I realized early on, probably in the second grade that I wasn't buying any of it. I remember the nun lining all the girls up and asking who wanted to be a nun when they grew up. I was the only one who didn't or at least honest enough to admit it. That thought just horrified me.

I am content to not know if there is a god or not. Being or striving to be a good human is enough for me and I don't need any of the trappings or labels. I do strongly believe that everyone should believe any way they want and it is no one elses business.

If you get a chance, you might enjoy a song by Iris DeMent called:

Let The Mystery Be

It's one of my favorites

[lindata 1]

You guys come up with some great stuff. I guess you could say I am kindof an agnostic of sorts. As a teenager I balked at my organized Christian religion. I couldn't stomach watching people parade around in their finest duds to impress each other, profess their believes and then go about their lives belittling those who did not feel exactly the same way they did. I couldn't stand an organized group of people whose idea of a successful religion was sitting in a gold-leafed tower wearing velvet robes and building more gold-leafed towers. My feelings were further reinforced when I met a load of Catholics later in life and saw the damage that had been done to many of them by their organized religion (not their God, mind you). As far as I am concerned, anything in religion touched by man is suspect. That includes the Bible. Men are mortal and fallable, given to their own whims and devices and agendas. There were plenty of charlatans in the days of yore, and there are plenty of them now. Religion is a profitable business for the power hungry, always has been and always will be. I do not claim any religion for myself. Yes, I feel there is a supreme entity somewhere. He can be God or Yahweh or Alla....or dare I say it...yes....the Flying Sphagetti Monster. A rose by any other name will smell as sweet. My idea of a good religion is the simpler the better. No robes, no books, no candles and incense, no "divine conduit" who is the "one and only person" I can talk to my God through, no beads and chants and statues. Don't tell me I can't wear blue on Wednesdays because God disapproves. Don't say I have to dance a jig and recite a haiku backwards to talk to my God. My God is nature....leaves and sky and fresh air and laying in the grass on a cool day...a red sunset and a rainstorm and the myriad of miracles before our eyes. I rejoice in them and appreciate their beauty and wonder. I consider man to be the height of narcissistic to assume that his God has picked him out from any other amoeba on the planet for his "special purpose" or has decided that he alone and all his clan will get a "Get out of jail free" card and ticket to the 40 virgin club in a next life.... Pretty much everything we humans have touched has turned to crap over the span of time (mostly in the name of God, I might add)....despite ourselves, this is still a wondrous world...if we'd just get our meddling hands out of the mix.

"Amen" to that! I believe there's something out there - whether it's Mother Nature or energy or some kind of higher power. I don't believe I have to sit in a church to be able to talk to my "God". The closest I feel to a higher being is when I'm out in nature - going for a hike up a mountain or a walk through the forest, seeing the miracle of wildlife.