Spanking

[gadgetlady 4]

I was never spanked - NEVER & that is because my father was abused by his mother on a daily basis. He has the scars on his chest where she would put out her cigarette & the emotional ones that go far deeper.

luluc, I'm so sorry for what your father went through and how that impacted your relationship with him. Whenever I hear about such things they literally bring tears to my eyes. How someone can do that to a child, much less their own child, is Simply Beyond me.

[BJean 16]

To support your point about it being confusing when you mix love and physical pain Brandy, I'll tell you a little about my sister's daugher. My sister used to hit my niece - a lot. They were so much alike they constantly crossed swords. Of course my sister was bigger and in charge so guess who always won... anyway, my my niece is grown now and she and my sister have never been able to honestly talk about how much my sister used to hit my niece The times that my niece has tried to discuss it with her, my sister always says, "Oh you know that I never hit you. If there was a case where I did hit you, it was because you asked for it." And then she giggles nervously and leaves the room.

Over time, my niece learned that love and hitting went hand in hand. She needed to believe that her mother loved her. To think anything else was too painful. Now as an adult, she can't feel loved by her spouse unless and until he hits her. Even sexually, he has to hit her or she just can't feel anything.

My niece has never confided in her mother about it, but she's confided in me and my heart goes out to her. She gets counseling, but she hasn't been able to get over it yet. Btw, she NEVER hits her son and I am so proud of her for that.

[brandyII 9]

To support your point about it being confusing when you mix love and physical pain Brandy, I'll tell you a little about my sister's daugher. My sister used to hit my niece - a lot. They were so much alike they constantly crossed swords. Of course my sister was bigger and in charge so guess who always won... anyway, my my niece is grown now and she and my sister have never been able to honestly talk about how much my sister used to hit my niece The times that my niece has tried to discuss it with her, my sister always says, "Oh you know that I never hit you. If there was a case where I did hit you, it was because you asked for it." And then she giggles nervously and leaves the room.

Over time, my niece learned that love and hitting went hand in hand. She needed to believe that her mother loved her. To think anything else was too painful. Now as an adult, she can't feel loved by her spouse unless and until he hits her. Even sexually, he has to hit her or she just can't feel anything.

My niece has never confided in her mother about it, but she's confided in me and my heart goes out to her. She gets counseling, but she hasn't been able to get over it yet. Btw, she NEVER hits her son and I am so proud of her for that.

I've heard those stories before too, it's really sad isn't it. People have no clue what their actions can do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for your honesty maybe people will listen but I don't have much faith in this group:confused_smile:brandyII

[Kat817 19]

Different perspective:

I was never spanked - NEVER & that is because my father was abused by his mother on a daily basis. He has the scars on his chest where she would put out her cigarette & the emotional ones that go far deeper. But that was abuse - not spanking.

In some ways, I "wish" I was spanked because the "emotional let down lecture" that took place lasted WAY longer than a crack on the hand/bum. The "I'm so disappointed in You" talk would result in my Dad (because he was downright afraid to spank) not capable of communicating w/one of me or my siblings for days it seemed like - and that was in my opinion DEVASTATING.

He obviously had issues that he and my Mum had to work through over the years; but it was well past the point when we were all too old to be spanked - that did he resolve his own demons. Now he is Grandpa on Steroids and a Far better "parent" / "grandparent" , emotionally available than ever before.

I have no idea, not being a parent how I would handle a situation. I'd like to think I'd take after my mum; but I'll likely not know that - my dealings are w/my animals & I'm just an all around push over; but I'm not raising the next generation - I'm just raising a bunch of furry friends.

I'd like to think that parents can make their own decisions as to how to discipline their children w/out interferrence - I think making this a law is a bad thing in MO.

I see this in my great nephews. My niece does not believe in spanking them, as that is abuse, but she has said horrid, mean, dregrading things to those boys----just getting her point across! Give me a break! 20 years from now, they would not remember a quick pop on the butt (if it were kept to that) but the words that they were a disappointment, or that they were stupid or they would not keep getting in the same trouble again, and again--they will remember FOREVER!

Abuse comes in many, many forms----and an abuser will simply move to another form if it is illegal to spank a child. They likely use more than one kind now.

After years of being abused, and working with other women who were abused---the physical is the easiest to get past. Yep I have scars---but it is not them that can cause you to lie awake at night and wonder----it is the words---the emotional abuse. You lay there wondering if on some level you really ARE that bad, and question everything. When the physical is over, it is over.

I am not promoting spanking-----just saying as Lulu did above---there are worse things a parent can do than pop a child on the butt for misbehaviour.....

Kat

[brandyII 9]

Kat817,

I agree, abuse in either form is wrong, brandyII.

[gadgetlady 4]

I've never seen a person who hasn't spanked without any anger, abuse of power or control. But like I said before, I've given up on this group of people as they only seem to care about that one judgement day in the end.

As one of them, I am posting on behalf of those who haven't spanked with anger, abuse of power, or control, and who care about more than "that one judgment day in the end." We exist. I'm sorry you've never seen one. Maybe you've never seen one because those of us who spank this way don't do it with screaming fits of rage, but rather quietly and with understanding, sorrow, and reconciliation afterwards.

[BJean 16]

Abuse in any form is bad. I think this has been a great forum. I have read lots of very interesting stories and different perspectives.

I have always thought that parents should have the right to educate and discipline their children by their own set of rules. I've also observed so much abuse, both physical and emotional, that I wonder what we as a society are going to do to help the children and stop the horrendous cycle of abuse.

You all are giving me some hope that it can be done without laws that interfere with parental rights.

It has many of the same pros and cons as the question of gun control, doesn't it?

[Devana 0]

I know some families who are followers of the principles of child discipline set out by a couple of guys called Ezzo and Dobson.

I find this stuff downright scary, especially Ezzo

[brandyII 9]

I know some families who are followers of the principles of child discipline set out by a couple of guys called Ezzo and Dobson.

I find this stuff downright scary, especially Ezzo

Well I thought I'd research it quickly to see what it was about but the titles turned me off from the start so I'm assuming they're "spare the rod, spoil the child" type peeps?:wink2:

[BJean 16]

I'm unfamiliar with their suggested method of discipline. If you have a moment, enlighten me.

[gadgetlady 4]

I know some families who are followers of the principles of child discipline set out by a couple of guys called Ezzo and Dobson.

I find this stuff downright scary, especially Ezzo

What about it is scary?

Have you read Ezzo or Dobson, or just read what critics say about Ezzo or Dobson?

[brandyII 9]

I'm unfamiliar with their suggested method of discipline. If you have a moment, enlighten me.

I agree someone enlighten us, I love to be enlightened:smile:

[Devana 0]

I have read some works of both of those men, however it was many years ago. One title I remember most was something like "Raising Your Child God's Way". It belonged to a friend of mine when my son and her oldest were much younger.

Both these guys advocate discipline by hitting with an object, something hard enough to hurt, but not leave bruises or marks. They suggest starting this at 18 months. Scary.

Ezzo states that the child will have guilt for it's misdeed and that corporal punishment will get rid of this guilt, otherwise that child will carry it for life. Scary.

Dobson says that physical discipline is the way to instill Judeo-Christian moral values in children. Scary.

My friend Jeanette was very conflicted when her children were young. We discussed this often. She had her friends from church who followed these principles (she even got a special whacker instrument for hitting from one of them) and she had us who didn't. She also saw that our children were very well behaved even though we practiced attachment parenting principles.

Ezzo had some early infant practices that were very parent centred rather than meeting the infant's needs, which included letting them cry for what I considered to be long periods and rigid scheduled breast feeding. Jeanette ran into trouble with her second son who would not settle and wanted to be held more than what was considered acceptable. He was just fussy and considered to be strong willed. Her milk dried up with the feeding schedule. She had taken him to her MD who was a supporter of these practices, and he told her to persevere, and basically condition her baby to her will. At 19 months she took him to see a different pediatrician and within 10 hours her son was having heart surgery.

After that, she gave up a lot of those parenting practices, including the hitting. She says she feels that if she were not applying those principles that her son's distress would have bee more quickly identified as something wrong. She maintained some of the others, like consistency which happened to be similar to what we, as attachment parents, were using.

I had forgotten all this until a couple of years ago I began to see, in my office, younger Moms who were real advocates of these methods. I was kind of hoping it would fade away. They really feel that their children will turn into ungodly brats if they don't hit them.

[BJean 16]

Thanks Devana. Just about what I figured, only surprisingly even worse. I appreciate your input here.

Your pediatrician story made me remember mine. When our DD was a baby and had "colic" and cried a lot because her tummy hurt, our pediatrician advised us to allow her to cry in her bed for at least 30 minutes at a time, rather than try to hold her or continually comfort her - since holding her might condition her to demand attention even when she was not in pain. He said she needed to learn to comfort herself and that sometimes babies just need to cry it out. He said that 30 minutes, or even 45 minutes of crying alone in her bed would not physically harm her. And he added that sometimes that's the only way parents can keep their sanity with a colicky baby.

I asked him if that was how he handled his 5 children. He said, no, he could never listen to his children cry without trying to figure out what was wrong and if he coundn't find anything wrong, then he would hold them, rock them and comfort them. I said then why are you telling me that I should let her cry? He said because that's the current conventional wisdom and he can't dispute it. I asked him if we would be spoiling her by giving her that much attention and he added that babies can't be spoiled. Their behavior is generated by instinct.

Man IMHO, if we don't use common sense and logic to tend to our children's needs, we're not doing them or ourselves any favors.

[Devana 0]

I wonder if these two guys even have children.