Protein and Weight Loss (unrelated)

[Midnightsun 129]

15 minutes ago, catwoman7 said:

in defense of Fluffy, she's a respected member of this site and a really good resource for us. It's just that what your nutritionist told you is wildy different than what the rest of us were told. It's....unusual advice. I've been hanging out on WLS forums for about five years, and this is the first time I've ever heard of anything like this.

I don’t have ANY problem someone who disagrees or questions it. I questioned it myself. I don’t think I needed to be talked to the way she did or for her to make fun of my surgeon \ nutritionist. I am sorry we are suppose to be here to help each other. Just because someone can post on almost every post does not make you a professional and should not be giving information as one. It is one thing to post something what you were told or what you are doing so people can see if that is good for them. It is NOT OK to give medical advice or to downright discredit something you are not qualified to do.

I was so pissed off With her response I called my nutritionist to verify and he went through everything again on the reasoning. I just don’t feel this is how we should talk to each other. Shame on her!

Edited November 14, 2019 by Midnightsun

[Meryline 546]

There is no shame on her, I'm sorry, but because it goes against what everyone else has heard, it sounds like a made up rule.

Now replacing a meal with shakes it's different. And no I don't care what your nutritionist said, it's not the Protein Shakes that drives the weight loss, it's the calorie deficit you are in. Protein helps you feel full and retain some muscles, but it doesn't drive the weight loss.

Follow your doctor, but question things that goes against every other doctor.

I have lost over 100lbs and I started food 4 days after surgery. Food and shakes to get enough protein. I still drink a shake a day, but as a supplement to get enough, which is 120-150g a day. I drink it on top of all my meals.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Meryline

[Healthy_life2 8,324]

25 minutes ago, Midnightsun said:

I don’t have ANY problem someone who disagrees or questions it. I questioned it myself. I don’t think I needed to be talked to the way she did or for her to make fun of my surgeon \ nutritionist. I am sorry we are suppose to be here to help each other. Just because someone can post on almost every post does not make you a professional and should not be giving information as one. It is one thing to post something what you were told or what you are doing so people can see if that is good for them. It is NOT OK to give medical advice or to downright discredit something you are not qualified to do.

I was so pissed off With her response I called my nutritionist to verify and he went through everything again on the reasoning. I just don’t feel this is how we should talk to each other. Shame on her!

Its frustrating figuring out bariatric stages etc. Keep working with your team, things will get better over time. You are new to the site, take what’s useful and ignore the rest. You can block people if you like.

[Midnightsun 129]

I believe in the beginning my surgeon \ nutritionist only count the Liquid Protein is be be certain we are getting and absorbing all the Protein we need. This will change as I am able to consume more foods and hit goal weight. I can say I did not have any of health issues many have had, my labs were great, I feel good, have energy and honesty forget I had the surgery. I am losing weight, it is working for me. Here is a link that may help.

Not only is the minimum protein intake not achieved by most patients, there are unique circumstances that potentially impact digestion and absorption of dietary protein following bariatric surgery. Due to anatomical changes following the majority of procedures performed today, specifically the reduction in stomach capacity, hydrochloric acid, digestive enzymes, and potential rearrangement of the small intestine, protein digestion and absorption may be impacted.

^{http://bariatrictimes.com/inadequate-protein-intake-bariatric-surgery-dietitian/}

[lvidacovich 372]

Back on topic - I lost a pound this morning, which was great! I've been doing better about tracking my intake and I think I'm getting too many calories for this phase so now I'm shooting for 650 a day and whatever that gets me Protein wise. Some days it might be 100g and others I might be closer to 70g.

[Stella S 612]

3 weeks out and healing! Seems like 80 to 100 g for males is pretty normal. Get your Water in and heal. I concur i stair stepped my weight. Up a bit then a drop then nothing then up a bit then a drop.... repeat Also many years post op and I try to keep my food pretty clean. My rule of thumb is a couple ingredients that I can pronounce!!! Best to you

[KarenLR75 515]

9 hours ago, FluffyChix said:

Protein Drinks + Protein in food = total daily protein. Most of our docs say 60-80g for women and 80-100g for men (from all sources-animal, mineral, vegetable). LOL.

80 is my 'cap' for protein. I usually hit around 70 to 75. 80% of the time it is WITHOUT Protein Shakes FINALLY.

I have occasionally gone over and hit like 82-85 a handful of times. I don't stress too much about a few points over as I am typically hitting under 80 anyways 95% of the time.

I finally got fruit incorporated (the low carb ones) and am working to remember to incorporate veggies too. Developed bad bad habits from liquid days and then protein shakes galore...and then finally eating protein, yogurt (which has some protein too) and some fruit...and forgot my veggies!

From what I recall, the focus when eating for me...at 4 months out is: protein, followed by veggies followed by fruit.

[KarenLR75 515]

9 hours ago, FluffyChix said:

23 hours ago, Midnightsun said:

I am certainly not an expert or anything but one thing I did not know. I eat the Oikos triple zero yogurt and was counting that towards my Protein count. (Instead of 2 shakes I had one shake and 2 yogurts). Here the nutritionist said 60 to 80 grams of liquid protein... I was pretty upset that was not clarified to me or maybe it was and i didn’t understand it all. Anyways that is what they want me to count it just the Liquid Protein for best weight loss and health. Maybe ask your nutritionist about that when you speak with him/her. Something about how it absorbs. Also your body can only absorb so much Protein at one time so if you drink double Protein Shake it isn’t doing you any good. Just a lot of info and I myself am trying to figure it all out.

Well, she's certainly within rights to make arbitrary fantasy rules for her practice, but scientifically this is a load of hooey. LOL. ALLLLLLLL macronutrients are cumulative as is calorie load, glycemic load, incretin load, Protein load, etc. So. You do what you think is best. But if you apply her screwy logic to your diet, you are gonna be working super hard to get all that protein down and you will likely be over eating = slow weight loss.

Protein Drinks + protein in food = total daily protein. Most of our docs say 60-80g for women and 80-100g for men (from all sources-animal, mineral, vegetable). LOL.

@Midnightsun - honestly I had similar thought as Fluffy in that...your nutritionist said "what??".

This is not to demean or take away from your team that you are working with. But I honestly was..shocked..I haunted these forums for 2 years prior to having surgery and no, this does not make me a nutritionist, a surgeon, etc. but one thing I think we can all agree on is that when you've hung around and paid attention to things for a long time, you get a feeling for many of the basics or even many of the variations we can expect to see that may change based on who your surgeon is and what they believe is best in their practice.

Example - for some their dr's want 4 weeks liquid diet, some want 2 weeks liquid diet, some have just a few days, some do low calories including mostly liquids but maybe a lean cuisine meal at X meals a day. Coming here taught me that even post-op phases could vary but in general, there was a liquid stage, a pureed stage, soft foods, etc.

I cannot speak for anyone but me but when I read your post my first thought was 'WOW, that is a new one!". I also felt frustrated FOR you reading that you were upset (and TOTALLY getting why) abt how things were not clarified for you and/or that you didn't understand it - paraphrasing here, not meaning to twist your words. My gut reply was surprise at something I simply had not heard/encountered before as well as FRUSTRATION for you/on your behalf. I read Fluffy's reply as TOTALLY coming from a different place...one more that I can state I felt - concern about what you had been told, worry that you felt frustrated, surprise at the suggestion, knowing I personally have never encountered that recommendation before (NOT saying it is WRONG, but it was for me..a bit startling)..and a desire for hopefully clarification on why they feel the way they do/recommend what they do.

NOT that your team needs to justify anything to ME, just always interested in new/different info. Now ALL of that being said, one thing that frustrated me with my parent's generation was an over-reliance on believing that just because a person is a doctor, a lawyer, or lets say..even a nutritionist, that they were ALWAYS right. Well, some ALWAYS right dr's almost killed my Dad once in the hospital until I got rid of them and he lived another 7 years. This is an EXTREME example and does not mean you have bad/wrong dr/nutritionist but I have personally become very LEERY of information that is different. You did exactly what I would have done - you called and asked for clarification.

I liked my surgeon and nutritionist team very much but....I'm a 'trust, but verify' person now. You called and got verification. I truly truly think that ppl were concerned for you and not meaning to...come from a place of being all-knowing. I've learned that the older I get, the less I know. I pray you receive this post in the spirit that it is meant and that is for you to know that I feel...we all posted because we were worried and we cared. You went and followed up. I think that is a good result in the end??

[KarenLR75 515]

2 hours ago, lvidacovich said:

Back on topic - I lost a pound this morning, which was great! I've been doing better about tracking my intake and I think I'm getting too many calories for this phase so now I'm shooting for 650 a day and whatever that gets me Protein wise. Some days it might be 100g and others I might be closer to 70g.

Congrats to you! I remember from doing keto/low carb way of life prior to have WLS, I lost 55 or maybe 60 lbs in 15 months..yeah, not fast..that I finally found out that TOO much Protein gets converted to glucose! I was like "say what?" as I chomped on my 4th piece of bacon that my Keto WOL said I could 'eat' as long as I stayed under 20 grams a day (this was in PRE-SURGERY years - I don't eat bacon now out of choice)

Although I've had 2 different nutritionists, my primary care dr and 2 bariatric surgeon's confirm that for me, I still just had to ask the surgeon I ended up using...whether I'd still have to be mindful of keeping my protein down...and the answer was that 'yes, too much protein can still and would still get converted to glucose at some point"..but was relieved when my 'target macro' for protein was 80 grams.

I have that tidbit stuck in the back of my head so I always get nervous when I go over 80 (am female and only 5'6")...I just chant to myself 'glucose, glucose, glucose"..LOL..and my surgeon was also clear that the majority of protein being taken in during post-op was going all towards healing primarily. I just know 'me' so I keep myself in constant check on my specific protein macro which was identified as my ideal target.

Most guys on here I've seen with a much higher protein target. I guess my question would kind of be..IF I were a guy...LOL...is would I lose more weight with less protein (i.e.or even for me as a woman..eating less than 80 but more than 63 or 64?).

For me with my SLOW metabolism, my weight loss picks up when I keep my carbs a bit lower than my dr's macro but NOT as low as I was originally keeping my carbs out of habit from doing keto WOL. It's interesting finding out what our 'new normals' are and it is nice when we can work with our teams and make adjustments if needed...to see if that impacts our weight loss..especially when I have been STALLED!

Edited November 14, 2019 by KarenLR75

[Midnightsun 129]

On 11/14/2019 at 5:12 PM, KarenLR75 said:

@Midnightsun - honestly I had similar thought as Fluffy in that...your nutritionist said "what??".

This is not to demean or take away from your team that you are working with. But I honestly was..shocked..I haunted these forums for 2 years prior to having surgery and no, this does not make me a nutritionist, a surgeon, etc. but one thing I think we can all agree on is that when you've hung around and paid attention to things for a long time, you get a feeling for many of the basics or even many of the variations we can expect to see that may change based on who your surgeon is and what they believe is best in their practice.

Example - for some their dr's want 4 weeks liquid diet, some want 2 weeks liquid diet, some have just a few days, some do low calories including mostly liquids but maybe a lean cuisine meal at X meals a day. Coming here taught me that even post-op phases could vary but in general, there was a liquid stage, a pureed stage, soft foods, etc.

I cannot speak for anyone but me but when I read your post my first thought was 'WOW, that is a new one!". I also felt frustrated FOR you reading that you were upset (and TOTALLY getting why) abt how things were not clarified for you and/or that you didn't understand it - paraphrasing here, not meaning to twist your words. My gut reply was surprise at something I simply had not heard/encountered before as well as FRUSTRATION for you/on your behalf. I read Fluffy's reply as TOTALLY coming from a different place...one more that I can state I felt - concern about what you had been told, worry that you felt frustrated, surprise at the suggestion, knowing I personally have never encountered that recommendation before (NOT saying it is WRONG, but it was for me..a bit startling)..and a desire for hopefully clarification on why they feel the way they do/recommend what they do.

NOT that your team needs to justify anything to ME, just always interested in new/different info. Now ALL of that being said, one thing that frustrated me with my parent's generation was an over-reliance on believing that just because a person is a doctor, a lawyer, or lets say..even a nutritionist, that they were ALWAYS right. Well, some ALWAYS right dr's almost killed my Dad once in the hospital until I got rid of them and he lived another 7 years. This is an EXTREME example and does not mean you have bad/wrong dr/nutritionist but I have personally become very LEERY of information that is different. You did exactly what I would have done - you called and asked for clarification.

I liked my surgeon and nutritionist team very much but....I'm a 'trust, but verify' person now. You called and got verification. I truly truly think that ppl were concerned for you and not meaning to...come from a place of being all-knowing. I've learned that the older I get, the less I know. I pray you receive this post in the spirit that it is meant and that is for you to know that I feel...we all posted because we were worried and we cared. You went and followed up. I think that is a good result in the end??

Hi, I went back and asked a completely different bariatric surgeon on why I am to have a Protein Shake a day until I meet goal weight and how/why/if the liquid Protein is absorbed differently and faster than protein from our food intake. He stated that because “the liquid protein is definitely absorbed better because the small surface area of the stomach” Since we eat so little in the beginning my surgeon \ nutritionist wants to make sure I get the proper nutrition as some of the solid foods isn’t easily absorbed. I hope this makes sense to people and maybe it can help someone.

I have psoriatic arthritis and almost lost my liver due to meds the Dr. put me on. I told him what was going on and he dismissed me. I have an excellent Primary dr. Called her my ast/alt numbers were 1800 and close to 2k. Should be less than I think 35-40. So I do verify information a dr. Gives me that I do not feel is correct.

I appreciate your response and I hope this information makes sense to others as I am satisfied with the answer coming from my surgeon, nutritionist , bariatric nurse, my unrelated primary care physician and a completely unrelated bariatric surgeon.

I have absolutely no problem if someone does not agree or thinks something is wrong or different\unusual. Just don’t dismiss the information / make fun of it and put others on the wrong track. Medical stuff changes everyday as they learn and drs have different opinions and approaches. That’s why I came onto this site to learn and see what others were doing. I just don’t like being trashed if you have a different experience or opinion.

anyways thanks for your post and again I hope it makes sense now.

[Meryline 546]

@Midnightsun but that is different from what you first said. That they told you that it's only the Liquid Protein that counts towards your Protein count. And that is just not true.

That yes, we might absorbe liquid protein (first I have ever heared that though) easier in the beginning, sure, It's easier to get down than food, but all protein counts. I still drink a shake every singel day, and I'm 2.5 years post op. It is to make sure I get the 120-150g of protein that my body needs. The food I eat, counts equally to the shake. It's not like you push a button when you reach goal, that suddenly turns the absortion from food on. It's there all the time. In the beginning you just get more protein from liquids because it's easier to get down.

And especially for Gastric bypass, they have discovered that the malabsortion is less than they thought in the beginning.

[Midnightsun 129]

On 11/14/2019 at 11:01 AM, catwoman7 said:

in defense of Fluffy, she's a respected member of this site and a really good resource for us. It's just that what your nutritionist told you is wildy different than what the rest of us were told. It's....unusual advice. I've been hanging out on WLS forums for about five years, and this is the first time I've ever heard of anything like this.

1 hour ago, Meryline said:

@Midnightsun but that is different from what you first said. That they told you that it's only the Liquid Protein that counts towards your Protein count. And that is just not true.

That yes, we might absorbe liquid Protein (first I have ever heared that though) easier in the beginning, sure, It's easier to get down than food, but all protein counts. I still drink a shake every singel day, and I'm 2.5 years post op. It is to make sure I get the 120-150g of protein that my body needs. The food I eat, counts equally to the shake. It's not like you push a button when you reach goal, that suddenly turns the absortion from food on. It's there all the time. In the beginning you just get more protein from liquids because it's easier to get down.

And especially for Gastric bypass, they have discovered that the malabsortion is less than they thought in the beginning.

[Meryline 546]

@Midnightsun not sure what you are trying to point out with quoting those two posts.

[Midnightsun 129]

On 11/14/2019 at 11:01 AM, catwoman7 said:

in defense of Fluffy, she's a respected member of this site and a really good resource for us. It's just that what your nutritionist told you is wildy different than what the rest of us were told. It's....unusual advice. I've been hanging out on WLS forums for about five years, and this is the first time I've ever heard of anything like this.

1 hour ago, Meryline said:

@Midnightsun but that is different from what you first said. That they told you that it's only the Liquid Protein that counts towards your Protein count. And that is just not true.

That yes, we might absorbe liquid Protein (first I have ever heared that though) easier in the beginning, sure, It's easier to get down than food, but all protein counts. I still drink a shake every singel day, and I'm 2.5 years post op. It is to make sure I get the 120-150g of protein that my body needs. The food I eat, counts equally to the shake. It's not like you push a button when you reach goal, that suddenly turns the absortion from food on. It's there all the time. In the beginning you just get more protein from liquids because it's easier to get down.

And especially for Gastric bypass, they have discovered that the malabsortion is less than they thought in the beginning.

I was typing, clicked away and lost my whole message...

[Midnightsun 129]

I think you misread my original post. I was saying My nutritionist was Only counting My Liquid Protein for my goals. He did not count my Oikos triple zero yogurt as me reaching my protein intake. He wanted to make certain I was absorbing the nutrients I needed. Not that other Proteins don’t add up just not every gram of protein is absorbed especially in the beginning. I was on 2 shakes a day and still as everyone else eat your protein first etc.

i am now a little over 4 months. I am on (30 grams protein) shake/mix a day pulse to eat my proteins. I can substitute a protein supplement for a meal if I choose.

I have been reading up on it too. The reason being our stomach is small, the surface area is small especially in the first few months as it is swollen and as time goes on the swelling goes down and we can eat a little more. With less surface are. Less acids to break down foods, the stomach is also emptying quicker so not holding it there as long; so shorter time to be absorbed/digested. The liquid proteins are already broken down and more easily absorbed into out system. If you google it especially the bypass it actually shows some percentages of what bypass patients actually absorb at different phases after surgery in the medical abstracts.

Not saying at goal weight you no longer or do need a shake. That is there general guide/goal they gave me. I was referring what information was given to me and me alone. Medical information changes all the time so I don’t know if this is new information or just something some surgeons are now paying attention to.