Overtraining & Stalls???? Frustrated.....

[MeanSleevedMachine 277]

20 hours ago, AngieBear said:

Calorie burns on Apple watches are notoriously high. It is on all fitness trackers, but I’ve noticed my watch is the worst I’ve had. Walking a mile burns approximately 80 cals, if that, lifting less than a couple hundred in an hour, depending. Of course both are still awesome things to do.

The difference between lifting and walking (I do both) is that the calorie burn benefit to lifting doesn't stop and end during the activity. Increased muscle mass has a calorie burn effect that goes 24/7/365. So while you may only burn 200 calories during an hour of lifting weights, added muscle will consume more kCals than the fat it replaces. Which in turn ups your caloric daily burn.

If this guy is 20% body fat as he claims and he is working out like this, he is probably burning 3700 calories a day or more.

[AngieBear 2,524]

14 minutes ago, MeanSleevedMachine said:

The difference between lifting and walking (I do both) is that the calorie burn benefit to lifting doesn't stop and end during the activity. Increased muscle mass has a calorie burn effect that goes 24/7/365. So while you may only burn 200 calories during an hour of lifting weights, added muscle will consume more kCals than the fat it replaces. Which in turn ups your caloric daily burn.

If this guy is 20% body fat as he claims and he is working out like this, he is probably burning 3700 calories a day or more.

On the high end, depending on his actual muscle mass. Which is FAR different than the 4500-5500 his watch is claiming. 800-1800 cals a day different. Also of note is that your body will become more efficient at certain exercises - like walking, lowering your calorie burn while doing it.

Unfortunately, adding muscle does not increase your rmr like what we would like. This article by James Fell breaks it down pretty well. https://www.latimes.com/health/la-xpm-2011-may-16-la-he-fitness-muscle-myth-20110516-story.html

Edited May 26, 2019 by AngieBear

[MeanSleevedMachine 277]

10 minutes ago, AngieBear said:

On the high end, depending on his actual muscle mass. Which is FAR different than the 4500-5500 his watch is claiming. 800-1800 cals a day different. Also of note is that your body will become more efficient at certain exercises - like walking, lowering your calorie burn while doing it.

Unfortunately, adding muscle does not increase your rmr like what we would like. This article by James Fell breaks it down pretty well. https://www.latimes.com/health/la-xpm-2011-may-16-la-he-fitness-muscle-myth-20110516-story.html

Yeah, no. That guy has zero credentials to make him an authority on that. It is a scientific fact that 1 pound of muscle burns 7-10 calories a day and 1 pound of fat burns 2-3 calories a day. If you replace 20 pounds of fat with 20 pounds of muscle, the muscle will burn 140-200 calories a day just existing compared to the fat burning 40-60. This doesn't account for activity level and other things in which engaged muscles expend more energy, too. This is also in addition to the activity burn when building the muscle which is probably 4-600 calories a week.

Muscle just burns more energy. I find it unlikely he is burning 4500-5500 calories a day, too. Although, if he were taller it is possible. Not everyone fits into the little boxes everyone wants to put people in on this site. Some of us DO burn a lot of calories because we are large, have a low body fat % and are active. I'd put this guy in that category. He is probably burning ~3500 calories a day. Maybe a little more, maybe a little less.

My advice to him is to take the money (only costs me about $300 every six months) to get his BMR and body composition tested so he knows exactly what his body is made up of and how many calories he burns a day just existing, and with varied levels of exercise.

I wouldn't listen to anyone on this forum -- and yes, that includes me -- I'd see what the numbers say from people that specialize in doing this.

[AngieBear 2,524]

5 minutes ago, MeanSleevedMachine said:

Yeah, no. That guy has zero credentials to make him an authority on that. It is a scientific fact that 1 pound of muscle burns 7-10 calories a day and 1 pound of fat burns 2-3 calories a day. If you replace 20 pounds of fat with 20 pounds of muscle, the muscle will burn 140-200 calories a day just existing compared to the fat burning 40-60. This doesn't account for activity level and other things in which engaged muscles expend more energy, too. This is also in addition to the activity burn when building the muscle which is probably 4-600 calories a week.

Muscle just burns more energy. I find it unlikely he is burning 4500-5500 calories a day, too. Although, if he were taller it is possible. Not everyone fits into the little boxes everyone wants to put people in on this site. Some of us DO burn a lot of calories because we are large, have a low body fat % and are active. I'd put this guy in that category. He is probably burning ~3500 calories a day. Maybe a little more, maybe a little less.

My advice to him is to take the money (only costs me about $300 every six months) to get his BMR and body composition tested so he knows exactly what his body is made up of and how many calories he burns a day just existing, and with varied levels of exercise.

I wouldn't listen to anyone on this forum -- and yes, that includes me -- I'd see what the numbers say from people that specialize in doing this.

James Fell is pretty trusted in the fitness/nutrition communities, and he does cite his sources in that article. The numbers he states are close to the numbers you gave: 6 cals burn for muscle, 2-3 for fat. We are in agreement, and have been apparently? That the watch numbers are most likely off. That’s what I stated in my original post. Your initial “correcting” me by pointing out that he burns more due to muscle mass (not in disagreement, never said he doesn’t, just not the outrageous amounts his watch claims) gave the impression that you thought my initial assessment to not trust his watch was off. If that’s not the case, I wonder why you jumped in to disagree with me, when we are clearly not in disagreement?

The advice you gave to get his BMR tested is solid.

[MeanSleevedMachine 277]

My issue with what was said is what is directly in the quote. That weight lifting only burns a couple hundred calories an hour as if that were the only benefit to doing it. It isn’t. If we take the example of converting 20 lbs of fat to 20 lbs of muscle. The cumulative effects of that in a year without any extra effort is over 70,000 extra calories burned at rest. So that is 15 lbs of weight lost or 15 lbs of weight not gained (however you want to look at it depending on where you are in your weight loss) from no extra effort. Just carrying muscle instead of fat.

The benefits to weight lifting go far beyond the calories burned while weight lifting.

[AngieBear 2,524]

4 hours ago, MeanSleevedMachine said:

My issue with what was said is what is directly in the quote. That weight lifting only burns a couple hundred calories an hour as if that were the only benefit to doing it. It isn’t. If we take the example of converting 20 lbs of fat to 20 lbs of muscle. The cumulative effects of that in a year without any extra effort is over 70,000 extra calories burned at rest. So that is 15 lbs of weight lost or 15 lbs of weight not gained (however you want to look at it depending on where you are in your weight loss) from no extra effort. Just carrying muscle instead of fat.

The benefits to weight lifting go far beyond the calories burned while weight lifting.

I’m a powerlifter and know the impacts. I have a cage in my garage, that I actually use. I am ALL THE WAY IN on lifting. It’s one of the best things you can do for your body. My issue I brought up was with the daily calorie count. I’ve been stalled due to overestimating burns and underestimating intake. It’s a VERY frustrating place to be. As questioning the burn count was not something other posters had brought up, and it’s the first place I’d look given the extremely high burn numbers he cited, I thought it relevant.

Edited May 27, 2019 by AngieBear

[deadmanwalking 178]

Get the BMR test for sure! technology in watches ETC. isn't as good as most would like to believe. I started this journey at 472lbs with a BMI of over 60... My sleeve was april 23,2015. I did the low calorie diet to lose my weight and in 22 months I was down to 219lbs and hated how I felt and looked. I started to lift weights to help with my loose skin issues and I got addicted to it. I have been lifting for over 2 years now and gone through numerous calorie adjustments along the way. The original poster is NOT eating enough calories. I guarantee his burn is overstated coming from the watch but he should be in the 2k calorie range to add muscle. clean calories from whole food, but higher than he is eating. I am currently eating 3500-4k a day and if I fall under that I lose weight too fast. Metabolism is racing like crazy LOL... I am sitting at 278lbs today and run 11-15% bodyfat continuously. I would love to see the original posters results from a BRM test and then we can get him moving in the right direction! I guess I should add I am 6"6" and 45 years old too.... be great!

[BlueCrush 408]

I'm late to the thread, but I we'll also chimed in that your problem is likely also that you're not eating enough. I'm six foot three, and currently at about 225 lb. It is taking me a long time, like 8 months, to get from 220 to 225 by adding 5 lb of muscle. I found that my maintenance calories are in about 2800, and I have to eat about 3,500 to gain weight. Even healthy muscle weight.

[Johnny B 96]

Had sleeve surgery in January, now down a total of 109 lbs. (35lbs pre-surgery, 74lbs post-surgery).

I Just came out of recent stall. Everything had been the same, training, diet, regimen, etc, but what seemed to work for me was an increase in calories for a few days.

Guessing my body was in adaptation mode slowing my metabolism a bit, and the increase in calories sparked my metabolism, and I wound up losing 5 lbs. this past week.

So if you've hit a plateau, give it a shot.

[NurseMichael 142]

Oh my....finally......i have found my people!!!!!

So... i had surgery in 2016 (sleeve). Went from 356 to 179. At 179 my doc told me to hit the gym (probably 8 months post). I too found the guru that is Jim Stoppani and started following his programs. I started putting on weight and got terrified. I added 30lbs!!! But wait....my waitsline didnt change...WOOHOO!!!

So yes, i doo agree that dieticians and nutritionists have no idea what to do with those of us who train for strength but have a physical nutritional restriction. So thats where we have to help each other! Since surgery i have run over 10 obstacle course races (Spartan, Tough Mudder, etc) of lengths from 3 miles to 13 miles. I also participated in my first half marathon.

But now....I am a powerlifter!!! My lifts currently are bench-215, Squat-315, DL-405. I eat a ton!!! 3000 cal a day. Its a job in and of itself as i probably eat 7 meals a day as well as supplementation with shakes. Its not easy, but to build the size and strength i need, its neccessary.

We should totally start a group for bariatric lifters / bodybuilders.

[GansettRam74 13]

Thank to everyone that took time out of your day to comment, make suggestions, share your trials. I am certainly going to take much of the advice given. As I mentioned, my goal is to get my BF% to at least 20% if not lower. My PCP estimates I'm at about 30%BF now. I laugh at the BMI chart as it has me as 36%. My PCP and I talked about having a BMR test done and he's ordered one. To @oldbriannomore you look awesome man as do everyone else. I wish I had your height or even close to it. I'm a tad vertically challenged at 5'9. As my father always would say about himself and his kids. We aren't overweight, we're just under height! I did lose 1lb this week so yeah for small victories. I added a couple nights of 20yd sprints & ladder drill workouts, with with my 16yr old who's started his preseason Strength & conditioning workouts for football. Not sure if that made a difference but I was pleasantly surprised how well at 45yrs old how I kept up with him on the first 5 sprints anyway. I think my goal for the summer will be to try to shed as much extra fat as I can while maintaining the muscle I have as best I can then look to add muscle in the Fall. Please keep the discussions going. I enjoy reading everyone's experiences and recommendations.

[insta_adventurer 1,046]

Just chiming in as a fellow post-op fitness fan... I’ve personally noticed that as the weight has dropped and training has made me fitter, I actually need to train harder to get the same results that I used to get. Why? It takes a lot more effort to get my heart rate up and keep it up now. I really need to push myself to get to 140bpm during a workout. What’s your heart rate at during your workouts?

However, building muscle is supposed to increase metabolism, so whether or not you’re burning calories during the workout, your metabolism should see a boost from the muscle mass you’ve built up.

Good luck!

[summerset 5,265]

50 minutes ago, insta_adventurer said:

I’ve personally noticed that as the weight has dropped and training has made me fitter, I actually need to train harder to get the same results that I used to get. Why? It takes a lot more effort to get my heart rate up and keep it up now. I really need to push myself to get to 140bpm during a workout.

Because

Quote

I’ve personally noticed that as the weight has dropped and training has made me fitter, I actually need to train harder to get the same results that I used to get.

That's the basic effect of training after all. A body getting more efficient doing the work.

[Johnny B 96]

It comes backIl.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Johnny B

[insta_adventurer 1,046]

On 06/01/2019 at 13:40, summerset said:

Because

Quote

I’ve personally noticed that as the weight has dropped and training has made me fitter, I actually need to train harder to get the same results that I used to get.

That's the basic effect of training after all. A body getting more efficient doing the work.

It’s true. My watch doesn’t even register my daily walk as “exercise” these days. My trainer has said that when you hit a stall, the thing to do is work out twice as hard. It is a bit of a delicate balance, eating enough to properly fuel workouts but making sure not to overdo it or eat the wrong things at the wrong times.