IRAQ WAR your thoughts

[nina874 48]

I dont know if this is a subject that has been done to death, or is even PC for that matter, but as a UK girl I was just wondering what your take on the ongoing war is?

I get torn, because I feel that we have no business being there, but still have a great deal of sympathy and concern for my friends whose DH's are serving out there.

Nina x

[Chris_NJ 9]

:boink: I support the troops and there mission. Bring them home when they are done.

[nina874 48]

I support our troops no matter where they are, cos they are our boys :boink: I just dont think that they should be out there.

[kagoscuba 0]

I love my brothers in arms, and wish them godspeed home. We invaded a sovreign country without a clear reason to do so. I said it the day it happened, and I'll say it until the day I expire from this earth. The current administration has destroyed our international reputation for no good reason. We should have stuck to Afghanistan, and if we wanted to expand it: Syria (was building a nuclear plant from 2001 until 2006, when the Israelis blew the $hit out of it, because we wouldn't), North Korea (still technically at war with them, so still kind of confused why we allowed them to build nuclear technology), and our good buddies in Iran (444 days, and still nothing in reparations, and they are killing Americans in Iraq). Now, Saddam was a bad guy, but that's nothing a single shot from a Barrett .50 couldn't have helped. If we can break all of the protocols we have for the last few years, we could have easily broken the one concerning assassinating a foreign leader.

I also hate it when the administration and the media refer to Iraq and use the word "war." It isn't a war over there. Someone needs to crack open a history book and find out what real war consists of.

[TruBlueSue 0]

I'm an Iraq vet...and I agree. Saddam was in a box, and regime change would've happened. It may have not been on the US' timetable, and the government that followed may have not been one we would totally agree with, but it would have been an Iraqi solution to an Iraqi issue. Now we've 'bought' the issue...does anyone realise that saddam's government was a secular one, and that we've opened the door to an Islamist government such as iran????

[nina874 48]

I cannot comprehend the deciscion making process that lead them tothinking that it was the right thing to do??

Even when over 100,000 people marched through the streets of London in protest they still sent them out there.

When I look at the atrocities that are happening all over the world, Zimbabwe, Seirra Leone, the monks in Tibet etc etc, I wonder what provoked the reaction to Saddam's regime.Was it a war on terror?Was it a lust for oil? Was it religious fundamentalism? ( and I mean in the sense of far right Christian)

What do you guys think , Sue you have been out there whats your take on it?

Kago - I am with you totally, I feel that the UK are suffering in the same way,as much as anything our troops are stretched to breaking point as Tony Blair over committed them in an effort to buddy up!

Again I agree on the comments on Saddam, but all they have done now is create a huge power vaccum, just as they did to a degree in Afghanistan.They went in there tore it apart and now the War Lords are just laughing and sharing the spoils, there has been no improvement in the life of the afghans if anything they are worse off!

What about India and Pakistan and their nuclear programs, 2 unbelievably unstable political powers, but yet they carry on.....

Nina x

[Chris_NJ 9]

I cannot comprehend the deciscion making process that lead them tothinking that it was the right thing to do??

Even when over 100,000 people marched through the streets of London in protest they still sent them out there.

When I look at the atrocities that are happening all over the world, Zimbabwe, Seirra Leone, the monks in Tibet etc etc, I wonder what provoked the reaction to Saddam's regime.Was it a war on terror?Was it a lust for oil? Was it religious fundamentalism? ( and I mean in the sense of far right Christian)

What do you guys think , Sue you have been out there whats your take on it?

Kago - I am with you totally, I feel that the UK are suffering in the same way,as much as anything our troops are stretched to breaking point as Tony Blair over committed them in an effort to buddy up!

Again I agree on the comments on Saddam, but all they have done now is create a huge power vaccum, just as they did to a degree in Afghanistan.They went in there tore it apart and now the War Lords are just laughing and sharing the spoils, there has been no improvement in the life of the afghans if anything they are worse off!

What about India and Pakistan and their nuclear programs, 2 unbelievably unstable political powers, but yet they carry on.....

Nina x

It was a decision that over 80% of the population agreed on doing. Now when things don't go as planned and look tougher peoples minds change. I agree we may have rushed a little quick into it and should have spent more effort in Afghanistan but we are there now and nothing is going to change that fact. I don't believe in cutting and running as some would suggest we do. I think that we are there and must see we do our jobs until Iraq can fend for itself. Do I think we will ever totally leave Iraq. Highly unlikely. I think we will have some presence there for years to come. Just ask Korea, Japan and Germany. The oil is not the reason. After 9/11 we all felt threatened and felt we needed to take action against anyone who may threaten ours and our allies stability. So we carried a big stick. If Saddam would have complied with the UN none of this would have happened. He didn't and now he is dead. I honestly feel there were weapons over there. I think the were moved to Syria in the build up to the war. To anyone who thinks they couldn't have just ask yourself how we are constantly finding weapons from Iran over there. The borders are very porous and things get smuggled through all the time.

[Arria 0]

This war is played out. We can't fight another country's civil war for them, and it seems like this is what the Iraq war has become. I recognize that we will probably always have troops in Iraq, I don't like it, but I know that it's a fact of life. Personally, I'm for a timely withdrawal of our troops. I also think the US needs to go back to the isolationist country we used to be before WWII, at least until we can get our own crap straightened out here at home. We need to start producing our own products again and stop relying on foreign markets as we have been. But I digress...I think that things are going to get better as far as the war goes. We'll have an administration change in another year or so, and I'm trusting and hoping that whoever gains the presidency does a good job of picking up the pieces.

[TruBlueSue 0]

Hmmm. Here's what I know for sure. As a translator and a BA/MA in Middle East studies; as a member of the US Army who was part of the invasion in 2003, I spent 14 months translating documents, interrogating scientists, and combing potential WMD sites - those that were identified by WMD task force and given to MG Marks and my fellow soldiers to investigate. I KNOW that none of the sites I ever went to (200+) had any detectable WMD nor the components to make anything that might be considered WMD. The most scientifically "advanced" thing that I and the members of MY team (again, I can only speak to my specific experience) saw were matress coils hooked up to 12V car batteries in torture chambers. Whatever your take on the war, its hard to argue about potentially hidden scientific labs when the scientists themselves, under interrogation, admitted they didn't exist. The best theory I can come up with (and again, this is MY opinion) is that Saddam's government and, indeed, the political/social fabric of Baathist Iraq was SO riddled by corruption; that SO many people were making money off the illusion of WMD that no one was willing to counter the official party line. (e.g., the Ptoemkin village of the Soviet era) Plus, if you look at the bigger political picture in the area, Saddam was spouting all his crap for local consumption - not necessarily even his own domestic political audience - but that of Syria, Iran, the Saudis, Jordan, Egypt, et. al. Saddam and the Baathists weren't so worried about the US' position or even that of the UN - they were more worried about their own local neighborhood. So, yeah - you could say that Saddam miscalculated, but by the same token, so did the current US administration. Where does that leave us? It leaves us with 160,000 soldiers in positions they were never trained to be in, fighting an insurgency AND sitting in the middle of a 1400 year old religious conflict. Not a great place to be. The alternative? Well, for starters, I'd make KBR, Halliburton, and all the rest of those infrastructure contractors who are making BILLIONS to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure WAY more accountable than they are now. Where's the $$ going? What have you accomplished in the last 5 years?? And don't give me the bullshit line about security, because, if you believe the current administration, the security situation is only 'difficult' in Baghdad and Mosul. Two provinces out of 18. Why is there no 24/7 power in the other 16 provinces? Why no clean Water? Come on. This wouldn't be acceptable here in the US - why is it acceptable in Iraq? Its all about making money and there is no oversight.

As an aside, those who think that Saddam squirreled his WMD to Syria, well, Bashir A-assad was NO friend of Saddam - in fact they were political rivals! Not only that, but if you know anything about Syria, you'd instantly get the fact that as a totalitarian regime, THEY have TIGHT controls on THEIR borders. Just ask the million Iraqi refugees in Jordan who would much rather have gone to Syria...

former SSG, US Army 1987-1991; CPT, 1996-2005

[kagoscuba 0]

You are probably correct that 80% of the population agreed it was a good thing to do, based upon flat-out lies by the current administration. It got so bad that one of my commanders from the first Gulf War, who I truly admire, Colin Powell, left in barely disguised disgust with what was happening. He just couldn’t lie anymore. Withdrawing from a completed conflict (war has been over for years) is not cutting and running. It’s called not occupying a country who didn’t want you there anyway. The examples of Japan, Korea, and Germany were used…I would hazard a guess less than 500 US soldiers combined were killed by those populaces after the cessation of military operations. Why? Culture perhaps, and also those places were bombed into complacency. The media today groans about 20 civilians killed by a stray bomb. We killed over 100,000 German civilians in a week by firebombing Dresden, and no one shed a tear. Why? Because they were the enemy, and we fought them like they were one. That’s what I meant earlier by cracking open a book and reading about real war. Iraq is not a war; it’s a barely contained riot. If it was a war, then we should fight it like one and not with kid-gloves on. That’s why war should be such a grave decision. The administration of today thinks they can launch a couple of surgical strikes and walk in like heroes. Not only that, they think they can fool their own people by saying things like, “torture is ok, as an official US Government policy.” WTF?! Being an ex-soldier, I understand there are isolated instances where this is needed but as official policy to make it commonplace? Go read Bravo 2-0 about a British SAS soldier tortured by the Iraqis during Gulf War I and see if you want us to follow their lead. Like he said at the end of his book “I’d slot (kill) them all, if I had the chance.” I personally don’t want a generation of people being treated poorly to give birth to a new generation who’s sole mission is to avenge them.

Oh, and you can bet oil was the reason, two-fold. Iraq had it and more importantly the Saudis had it and were threatened by a militarily powerful Iraq. The Bush’s just happened to be bed-buddies with the royal family of Saudi Arabia, so here we are today.

Just so you don’t think I am too fluffy about the previous administration, go read about the shop of horrors Bill Clinton walked the US into in Somalia. I was on active duty then, saw what was happening and couldn’t have given two $hits about those people. After reading “Me Against My Brother,” which is about that conflict and others I found out I was right. Those people are barely human. Me against my brother is from an old Somali saying which goes: “Me against my brother, my brother and me against our family, our family against our clan, our clan against the world.” That is the hierarchy of violence as it is accepted by the Somali culture. It’s been ingrained for thousands of years, and we walked straight into it as clueless as could be. Thanks Bill.

[TruBlueSue 0]

Amen, Kago!! I was an MP in GW I, and I so agree with you about Powell, Clinton, et.al.

Hooah!!

[Chris_NJ 9]

Kudos and thank you both for your service. I am proud to say we can have these conversations without repercussions. I have my opinions and appreciate yours on the situation. I have not been there yet and will be there in January. Until then I will stand by my opinion unless that changes while being there for a year. Who knows they may change by the time my year is up.

Either way again Thank You for your service!

[BLUE EYED GIRL 0]

Hi Ninna,do You Support Terrorist Then?i Say Keep The Solders There,and Thats What There Trained To Do,they Chose To Join The Army.i Also Think Aust Is To Soft.bring Back The Death Penalty,im Sure There Would Be Alot Less Crime,and Yes Im A Christian,but If You Take A Life Then You Should Lose Yours.god Does Love And Forgive Us, We Will All Be Juged.,also I Know Some Familys With There Sons In The War,and They Say There Sons Say They Are Doing There Job And That They Want To Stay There,if You Pull Trops Out To Early There Country Goes To Crap Again

[cj_ole 0]

I have to share this email that I got from a friend. For me, it says it all. Forgive me if it's a little long, but I think it's worth sharing.

President Bush did make a bad mistake in the war on terrorism. But the mistake was not his decision to go to war in Iraq. Bush's mistake came in his belief that this country is the same one his father fought for in WW II. It is not.

Back then, they had just come out of a vicious depression. The country was steeled by the hardship of that depression, but they still believed fervently in this country. They knew that the people had elected their leaders, so it was the people's duty to back those leaders.

Therefore, when the war broke out the people came together, rallied behind, and stuck with their leaders, whether they had voted for them or not or whether the war was going badly or not. And war was just as distasteful and the anguish just as great then as it is today. Often there were more casualties in one day in WW II than we have had in the entire Iraq war, but that did not matter. The people stuck with the President because it was their patriotic duty. Americans put aside their differences in WW II and worked together to win that war.

Everyone from every strata of society, from young to old pitched in. Small children pulled little wagons around to gather scrap metal for the war effort. Grade school students saved their pennies to buy stamps for war bonds to help the effort.

Men who were too old or medically 4F lied about their age or condition trying their best to join the military. Women doubled their work to keep things going at home. Harsh rationing of everything from gasoline to soap, to butter was imposed; yet there was very little complaining.

You never heard prominent people on the radio belittling the President. Interestingly enough, in those days there were no fat cat actors and entertainers who ran off to visit and fawn over dictators of hostile countries and complain to them about our President. Instead, they made upbeat films and entertained our troops to help the troops' morale. And a bunch even enlisted. And imagine this: Teachers in schools actually started the day off with a Pledge of Allegiance, and with prayers for our country and our troops!

Back then, no newspaper would have dared point out certain weak spots in our cities where bombs could be set off to cause the maximum damage. No newspaper would have dared complain about what we were doing to catch spies.

A newspaper would have been laughed out of existence if it had complained that German or Japanese soldiers were being 'tortured' by being forced to wear women's underwear, or subjected to interrogation by a woman, or being scared by a dog, or did not have air conditioning.

There were a lot of things different back then. We were not subjected to a constant bombardment of pornography, perversion and promiscuity in movies or on radio. We did not have legions of crackheads, dope pushers and armed gangs roaming our streets.

No, President Bush did not make a mistake in his handling of terrorism. He made the mistake of believing that we still had the courage and fortitude of our fathers. He believed that this was still the country that our fathers fought so dearly to preserve.

It is not the same country. It is now a cross between Sodom and Gomorra and the land of Oz. We did unite for a short while after 9/11, but our attitude changed when we found out that defending our country would require some sacrifices.

We are in great danger. The terrorists are fanatic Muslims. They believe that it is okay, even their duty, to kill anyone who will not convert to Islam. It has been estimated that about one-third or over three hundred million Muslims are sympathetic to the terrorists cause...Hitler and Tojo combined did not have nearly that many potential recruits.

So...we either win it - or lose it - and you ain't gonna like losing. America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall.

(AMEN AND AMEN!!)

[anonemouse 1]

I have to share this email that I got from a friend. For me, it says it all. Forgive me if it's a little long, but I think it's worth sharing.

President Bush did make a bad mistake in the war on terrorism. But the mistake was not his decision to go to war in Iraq. Bush's mistake came in his belief that this country is the same one his father fought for in WW II. It is not.

Back then, they had just come out of a vicious depression. The country was steeled by the hardship of that depression, but they still believed fervently in this country. They knew that the people had elected their leaders, so it was the people's duty to back those leaders.

Therefore, when the war broke out the people came together, rallied behind, and stuck with their leaders, whether they had voted for them or not or whether the war was going badly or not. And war was just as distasteful and the anguish just as great then as it is today. Often there were more casualties in one day in WW II than we have had in the entire Iraq war, but that did not matter. The people stuck with the President because it was their patriotic duty. Americans put aside their differences in WW II and worked together to win that war.

Everyone from every strata of society, from young to old pitched in. Small children pulled little wagons around to gather scrap metal for the war effort. Grade school students saved their pennies to buy stamps for war bonds to help the effort.

Men who were too old or medically 4F lied about their age or condition trying their best to join the military. Women doubled their work to keep things going at home. Harsh rationing of everything from gasoline to soap, to butter was imposed; yet there was very little complaining.

You never heard prominent people on the radio belittling the President. Interestingly enough, in those days there were no fat cat actors and entertainers who ran off to visit and fawn over dictators of hostile countries and complain to them about our President. Instead, they made upbeat films and entertained our troops to help the troops' morale. And a bunch even enlisted. And imagine this: Teachers in schools actually started the day off with a Pledge of Allegiance, and with prayers for our country and our troops!

Back then, no newspaper would have dared point out certain weak spots in our cities where bombs could be set off to cause the maximum damage. No newspaper would have dared complain about what we were doing to catch spies.

A newspaper would have been laughed out of existence if it had complained that German or Japanese soldiers were being 'tortured' by being forced to wear women's underwear, or subjected to interrogation by a woman, or being scared by a dog, or did not have air conditioning.

There were a lot of things different back then. We were not subjected to a constant bombardment of pornography, perversion and promiscuity in movies or on radio. We did not have legions of crackheads, dope pushers and armed gangs roaming our streets.

No, President Bush did not make a mistake in his handling of terrorism. He made the mistake of believing that we still had the courage and fortitude of our fathers. He believed that this was still the country that our fathers fought so dearly to preserve.

It is not the same country. It is now a cross between Sodom and Gomorra and the land of Oz. We did unite for a short while after 9/11, but our attitude changed when we found out that defending our country would require some sacrifices.

We are in great danger. The terrorists are fanatic Muslims. They believe that it is okay, even their duty, to kill anyone who will not convert to Islam. It has been estimated that about one-third or over three hundred million Muslims are sympathetic to the terrorists cause...Hitler and Tojo combined did not have nearly that many potential recruits.

So...we either win it - or lose it - and you ain't gonna like losing. America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall.

(AMEN AND AMEN!!)

Anyone interested in hearing what I mentally translated the above email to mean?