1.5 years out

[JohnnyCakes 593]

On 2/19/2018 at 3:49 PM, Apple203 said:

This is your proof?

so now that it’s been a couple of days and you’ve had time to read the study, what are your thoughts?

here’s another link to the study, in case you lost the first one...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27385608

and here’s a good summary, if you’re pressed for time: https://www.vox.com/2016/7/6/12105660/do-low-carb-diets-work

[jess9395 5,449]

well that would certainly make sense, as the vast majority of dieticians and nutritionists are criminally out-of-date with the latest research. i believe they were still recommending 1980's-era low-fat and low-cholesterol dogma as recently as 2010.

hate to ruin any romantic impressions you have of the low-carb diet, but the "insulin hypothesis" is pretty much dead. all the best randomized control trials have proven that, including a nail-in-the-coffin take down about a year ago...
http://www.forefronthealth.com/low-carb-diet-weight-loss/

I’m trying to find the original study that the article you link to above cites, but the link in the article is broken. Do you have a link to the actual study? Is it peer reviewed? Because this article

https://www.medpagetoday.com/primarycare/dietnutrition/59012

Has some issues with the methodology and interpretation of the study and questions perhaps a conflict of interest in how the study was funded.

The article you link to is a site selling something so I always like to read the actual source.

[jess9395 5,449]

did you read the linked study?
didn't think so. (so shhhhh...)

I read the linked ARTICLE which described a study and had a link to a study but it was broken. I would like very much to read the actual study if you can provide a link!

[jess9395 5,449]

so now that it’s been a couple of days and you’ve had time to read the study, what are your thoughts?

here’s another link to the study, in case you lost the first one...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27385608

and here’s a good summary, if you’re pressed for time: https://www.vox.com/2016/7/6/12105660/do-low-carb-diets-work

Thank you I’m reading this now and I’m having the same issues with the methodology as the article I linked to above is.

To clarify.... I do not eat a ketogenic diet, I don’t think most people do. I think low refined carbs or even low carbs does not a ketogenic diet make. But I think a lot of people erroneously confuse the terms.

It has its place (among epileptics who don’t respond well to other treatments, for example).

But I think your method of virtually screaming at people and your use of sarcasm and verbal sparring will not win friends nor influence people.

[JohnnyCakes 593]

27 minutes ago, jess9395 said:

Thank you I’m reading this now and I’m having the same issues with the methodology.

then how about NUSI’s second study that just dropped? is that good enough for your terrifically high scientific methodological standards?

because it also proved that macronutrient levels are not important. and damn near exonerated sugar!

mind you - Nusi was founded by low-carb gods Gary Taubes and Peter Attia, who created the non-profit in order to design THE BEST research trials to get to the truth. i.e. remove the conflicts of interest. so far both their first two studies have contradicted the founders’ insulin hypothesis dogma. so embarrassed was Attia that he quit barely two years into the foundation.

http://www.stephanguyenet.com/the-second-nusi-funded-diet-trial-has-arrived/

and

https://examine.com/nutrition/low-fat-vs-low-carb-for-weight-loss/

Edited February 21, 2018 by JohnnyCakes

[jess9395 5,449]

Again can you send me the link to the actual study? I love reading about the ever evolving field of nutrition but I don’t like to read it from secondary sources especially those selling something.

[jess9395 5,449]

Found it, but why can’t you just link it? Why do you make people search for it when you are trying to share knowledge or convince someone?

Looks quite interesting thanks!

[QueenTot 5]

Wow as you can tell people on the board are opinionated and feel their way is best.
He suggested 800 calories?

Yes a 800 calorie day

[QueenTot 5]

Found it, but why can’t you just link it? Why do you make people search for it when you are trying to share knowledge or convince someone?

Looks quite interesting thanks!

Agreed

[JohnnyCakes 593]

7 hours ago, jess9395 said:

Found it, but why can’t you just link it? Why do you make people search for it when you are trying to share knowledge or convince someone?

WHY IS IT SO DIFFICULT FOR YOU?!? i was on a frickin iPad and typing at all was a pain in the ass. is it really that hard to find the link in the opening paragraph? jesus christ...

i linked to the Guyenet and Vox articles (which have the link to the study in them. front and center. not magically hidden, mind you) because i know 99% of people will not read the study, but might appreciate a summary of it in layman's terms.

is that okay with you? anything else i can do for you while i'm here???

[sleeved2win 79]

in order to achieve nutritional ketosis (based on blood ketones, not urine sticks. get yourself a blood ketone meter and prick yourself at least twice a day, or don't bother with the diet), the average person needs to consume upwards of 80% fat. you must "go crazy with the fat" to use your terminology. like, snack on spoonfuls of coconut oil crazy. which is extremely unpalatable and unsustainable. hence ONE of the problems with the regimen. too often, people use it as an excuse to also eat high amounts of Protein, thinking it has no effect on blood sugar. incorrect. thru a process called gluconeogenesis, protein can be broken down and used as a source of glucose. thus kicking you out of ketosis.

[...]
and then, you'll just have to follow this extreme, 80% fat diet for the rest of your life. because the moment you get off of it, your set point will ricochet the scale back to where you were before, probably with "some interest".

As much as@johnnycakes overall tone might be a little much, dudes got a point. I have an anecdote that supports the theory he provided.

I did the TRUE Keto diet before I considered surgery. It was one of the many diets I tried. And I did lose weight... at first. And I did have to eat, what felt to me, like WAY too much fat (heavy cream, coffee with coconut oil and butter, "fat bombs" made from butter, a ridiculous amount of cheese, etc.) in order to meet the daily goals of a true keto diet. Eventually tho, I stopped losing weight, even tho my keto sticks showed I was in ketosis. I measured everything and drank plenty of Water. This was not due to human error.

I have lost this weight before, on weight watchers and through other programs that incorporate healthy carbohydrates, and even an occasional sweet. I feel like I had the best results eating variety in my diet, and just being sensible with my portions. It's also important for me to track my food. I plan on having slow, steady weight loss with this method. I don't freak out when I hit a stall- they are a part of the process. I'm 7 weeks in and funny enough, when I started eating fruit again, my stall broke. Probably coincidence, but whatever.

To each his/her own-- do what works for you! I truly believe everyone's body is different and reacts differently to different things. But I agree that those who are suggesting keto might not be doing a TRUE keto diet, which I hated 100% personally. Sounds more like high protein, low carb, low(ish) fat, which is what my NUT suggests for her clients.

[Sosewsue61 3,185]

The bickering and outright insults have no place here and are an epic fail for helping anyone.

The arguments over various forms of Keto, paleo, original Atkins, Atkins 40, Dukan, South Beach, Weight Watchers, etc are never going to end. Many studies trying to prove or disprove them are seriously flawed models with no controls or double blind studies and often with unmeasureable variables.

Each person has to eat according to his/her health issues, and body's needs and find livable balance. The medical community can't even agree based on their own research.

And weight loss aside there are benefits for lowering insulin levels that are achieved with avoiding simple carbs/limiting carbs.

Keto is NOT the same as doing just carb restriction. Each of those 'diets' listed above have their own models they follow and some may be similar.

Personally I don't lose if I consume above 80 carbs unless I am extremely active. In Weight Watchers iteration #5,436, I did not lose on the 'free fruit' version if I ate 3 fruits a day. I lost best if my one 'starchy/grain' carb was at the morning meal, one fruit a day, low starch vegetables and Protein for all meals, and kept my hard cheese to one ounce a day.

VSG is amazing. The physical restriction with the metabolism reset and careful nutrition is the trifecta for me. I am a slower loser at the moment but that does not matter. I am not at the mercy of food cravings.

[JohnnyCakes 593]

1 hour ago, Sosewsue61 said:

Many studies trying to prove or disprove them are seriously flawed models with no controls or double blind studies and often with unmeasureable variables.

by saying this, i see you definitely did NOT read these two studies i referenced. because while what you say has been true of nutrition science for decades... the hugely important thing about these two studies is that it IS proper science. with controls and adherence and randomization. not epidemiology, not food questionnaires, no conflicts of interest. they are, by far, the best scientific research experiments ever conducted.

and they both found zero benefit to the low carb approach.

keep in mind - i'm saying this as a former low-carb die hard. but i'm not going to let my own cognitive dissonance blind me to the truth. just accept the new truth and move on...

[Sosewsue61 3,185]

@JohnnyCakes - you assume too effing much. Just because I didn't cite specifics from the article is no proof I did not read it. (Ironically your inaccurate assumptions parallel with the unscientific study.)

The study relied on 'random multi-dietary recalls' during the 12 months, while true, this is not a questionnaire -just how accurate and scientific is that type of reporting? I can write anything down in a journal I please. Going to 22 sessions was probably the best indicator of successful compliance in the program itself, support always produces better results for me.

After the first two months the participants average carb consumption was 115gr/day and I would hardly call that an Atkins low carb diet. And they did not say 'zero' benefit, I believe the study was to prove ' no significant weight loss difference between low fat and low carb across genotypes, etc.

Also the participants had no major health issues, so perhaps.....the results could be different with subjects that were already insulin resistant.

Like I said, the argument is not ending anytime soon. And I am for whatever works for each person.

[GreenTealael 25,351]

But I think your method of virtually screaming at people and your use of sarcasm and verbal sparring will not win friends nor influence people.

Totally agree,
Tone of the conversation
was distasteful at best