Obama forgets to salute flag...........

[BJean 16]

C'mon ya'll. I just read this thread for the first time. Someone just resurected it and it caught my attention.

When was the last time you put your hand over your heart when the National Anthem was played? I was taught in Girl Scouts that you put your hand over your heart during the Pledge of Allegience and when the flag is in motion - during a parade or when bringing it into or when it is leaving a room. One was not required to place their hand over their heart during the National Anthem. Of course that was many years ago, but I think lots of people were taught the same way I was. Obama may have been one of them.

I have been present at military affairs and observed that the military do place their hand over their heart during the National Anthem when they're inside a room. Outside they hold a salute. I believe that Chris's quote was from a military document because it speaks of "saluting" not placing hands over hearts.

Whatever the real expectation is I'm darned glad that I'm not running for president because there would be possibilities of photos all over the place that definitely do not show me with my hand over my heart - football games, basketball games, baseball games and elsewhere. Play ball!!

I think this kind of crap has done Obama much more good than bad. Many of us find ourselves doing our homework and defending the chap. And then there's the bonus of finding a photo of George W. with his hand over his bellybutton. Priceless!

[plain 12]

C'mon ya'll. I just read this thread for the first time. Someone just resurected it and it caught my attention.

When was the last time you put your hand over your heart when the National Anthem was played? I was taught in Girl Scouts that you put your hand over your heart during the Pledge of Allegience and when the flag is in motion - during a parade or when bringing it into or when it is leaving a room. One was not required to place their hand over their heart during the National Anthem. Of course that was many years ago, but I think lots of people were taught the same way I was. Obama may have been one of them.

I have been present at military affairs and observed that the military do place their hand over their heart during the National Anthem when they're inside a room. Outside they hold a salute. I believe that Chris's quote was from a military document because it speaks of "saluting" not placing hands over hearts.

Whatever the real expectation is I'm darned glad that I'm not running for president because there would be possibilities of photos all over the place that definitely do not show me with my hand over my heart - football games, basketball games, baseball games and elsewhere. Play ball!!

I think this kind of crap has done Obama much more good than bad. Many of us find ourselves doing our homework and defending the chap. And then there's the bonus of finding a photo of George W. with his hand over his bellybutton. Priceless!

Flag code says people should place their hand over their heart when the anthem is played (excepted from this are uniformed military personnel). Go to any sporting event. As soon as the anthem is played, hands cover hearts and hats come off.

Now do I believe Obama was deliberately thumbing his nose at the tradition? Nope. Likely he was distracted (I mean...the dude's running for prez...he has to have some things on his mind), but the picture is kinda hard to defend.

[METALBAND 0]

Everything about Obama is hard to defend.......

Condoleeza for president!!!!

[LilMissDiva Irene 3,282]

Everything about Obama is hard to defend.......

Condoleeza for president!!!!

 

[ELENATION 0]

Agree with Plain, and with the Flag code, but also agree that he was distracted and it was not intentional... even if he didn't want follow the code, he knew it could hurt him , so it would've been stupid to do it on purpose, nope, he was distracted... I admit that it looks bad though...

But I know that along the way, both Obama and McCain will do things that "look" bad or "sound" bad when more than likely they did it or said it without the intention of offending anybody, so I'm cutting him some slack... but I expect the same from the fellow dems should something go wrong with McCain at some point ok?:smile:

[BJean 16]

What's the defense for Bush putting his hand over his belly during the Pledge? That he was sick of having to salute the flag and it made his tummy ache? Seems like that's the logic of this discussion.

And Plain, that may be the military code for what to do when the National Anthem is played, but it wasn't taught in public schools that we are supposed to put our hands over their hearts during the National Anthem. If it's being taught in schools nowadays, that's news to me - and I am pleased as punch that they're teaching it. But think about all the Americans we've observed at sporting events and public events where no one is putting their hands over their hearts during the National Anthem. Why do you think that is, if it is clear to all Americans that we are being unpatriotic if we do not put our hands over our hearts during the national anthem?

All this B.S. about Obama not wearing a flag pen and not saluting the flag and reciting the Pledge of Allegience, etc., is political propaganda. Go to the Obama website where it clearly explains what his real feelings are and to what country he holds dear to his heart. Or go to Snopes.com and see how they debunk the stuff. Otherwise you're just accepting something someone says or some random photo as proof that he is an unAmerican Muslim sympathizer.

Obama is not and never has been a Muslim. He is an American with just as much patriotism as you and I have. My father never served in the military and he was a healthy, eligible for the draft, young man during World War II. Does that make him inelligible to run for public office (which he has done) or ineligible to discuss matters of national security or matters of national defense? No, it absolutely does not. My father didn't serve because he was a railroad engineer. He moved the materials across country that were made into airplanes and weapons. He and his job were as vital to the war as John McCain's was in Vietnam. And he was every bit a wonderful patriotic public servant as John McCain.

I resent McCain's public assertion that Obama is not qualified to discuss matters of national security. What kind of person would say something like that? A stupid person? A desparate person?

If we believe all this garbage that is being peddled by clever right wingers who will do anything to smear the name and reputation of a fine American citizen, we are ignorant!

Stick to the issues and to the truth about who the candidates are. If you do that, you will probably still vote for McCain because you share his politics, but stop trying to act like Obama is a bad person or is unpatriotic or is Muslim and those reasons are why you won't vote for him. It just doesn't stand up to any reasonable level of scrutiny and it is naive at best.

[LilMissDiva Irene 3,282]

All this B.S. about Obama not wearing a flag pen and not saluting the flag and reciting the Pledge of Allegience, etc., is political propaganda. Go to the Obama website where it clearly explains what his real feelings are and to what country he holds dear to his heart. Or go to Snopes.com and see how they debunk the stuff. Otherwise you're just accepting something someone says or some random photo as proof that he is an unAmerican Muslim sympathizer.

BJean, your entire post was great! Thanks for that. I just wanted to touch a little on this particular part.

All that showmanship does not make you any more patriotic than standing in a garage will make you a car.

To me one would be doing nothing more than exploiting the very concept of patriotism doing these things.

[BJean 16]

LilMissB.A.- thanks. What I have observed is that some people who profess heartfelt patriotism or Bible thumping religion are the ones you have to watch out for. Some of the patriots are the first to want to take our children to war and the religious ones are the ones who will screw you to the wall in business. When someone in Texas prefaces their bid for a job at my house or business with their claim that they are "a Christian-faithed business" we all step back a couple of steps because it's often the first clue to their unscrupulous character.

Never in a million years would I have thought this would be the case in my country. What in the world has happened to us? Why have we chosen to use patriotism and faith as tools to hurt others? It is truly a sad state of affairs.

[MicheleK 8]

LilMissB.A.- thanks. What I have observed is that some people who profess heartfelt patriotism or Bible thumping religion are the ones you have to watch out for. Some of the patriots are the first to want to take our children to war and the religious ones are the ones who will screw you to the wall in business. When someone in Texas prefaces their bid for a job at my house or business with their claim that they are "a Christian-faithed business" we all step back a couple of steps because it's often the first clue to their unscrupulous character.

Never in a million years would I have thought this would be the case in my country. What in the world has happened to us? Why have we chosen to use patriotism and faith as tools to hurt others? It is truly a sad state of affairs.

This is so well said....I agree 15000% (I live in Oklahoma...we have our share of Christian-faithed businesses, lol)

I find people that need to wear their faith "on their sleeve" by advertising it every chance they get to be the most insincere.

[laurenwhite82 0]

Actually, flag code is not clear about the anthem, it is about the pledge. I am a singer and sing the national anthem quite frequently at sporting events and many just remove their hats, they do not put their hand over their heart. It is not a "requirement" and the fact that right wing conservatives have the time to discuss whether someone has their hand over their heart during the national anthem rather than the fact that their own candidate will not support further education for troops who serve their time is just astounding. From someone who was educated by taxpayer dollars, its amazing how quickly he forgets to pay it forward, huh!

[BJean 16]

Thanks Michele I've spent a lot of time in Tulsa and I do know about the religious climate there.

lauren: Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't sure about the actual rules of conduct about the national anthem, although I do know what the military thinks. Of course they salute or take off their hats for lots of things that civilians do not.

I am completely disgusted by people making a big deal over this because those are the same people who support McCain, and just as you said, McCain is a man who does not want to give our military a respectable amount of money to attend college after the war. (Obama supports addtional money for verterans to attend college.)

We spend more money in a week in Iraq than what some legislators were wanting to add to the entire program for higher education for veterans. Which Bush also rejected as well. He has no problem spending billions every week and making our military go to war, but forget helping them afterwards.

They truly have some nerve, don't they?

No wonder they can't win by just debating the issues. They know they are in a weak and vulnerable position when it comes to the real issues. So they get down and dirty and attack the man, his experience, his religion, his life as a child and his even his wife. How do they sleep at night?

[LilMissDiva Irene 3,282]

Anyone remember the Walter Reed scandal? Sick, just sick. Anyway, that's how the Bush Administration and their minions treat our Vets when they return from war. Then, shortly after as a reward for their hard work and dedication, the soldier is sent on the next plane right back to the war zone.

You pose a good question BJean. How do they sleep at night? I bet they sleep just fine. Almost Sociopathic fine.

[ELENATION 0]

Well, as far as I heard, McCain said that in all due respect, he believed that Obama does not understand the elemental, fundamental elements of national security and warfare, that Obama has no experience or background in any of that and said the American voters will eventually see the same.

In my humble opinion, McCain was expressing the way he feels about this issue and Obama, Obama's spokeman answered pretty quick to this comment and as tough as McCain's, so really, what's wrong with that? this is a running for the precidency and both sides debate, discuss and yes, often attack each other, it's the political game, and has always been that way, is that the best or perfect way to do it? Probably not, but the attacks have always come from left and right, not just one side , in this particular case, I don't see it as an attack, I thought it was McCain expressing his opinion, which obviously it's not going to be appealing to democrats, duh? which by the way I have to agree with it at some level, Obama has little if any experience in foreign policies, I'm aware that experience doesn't necessarily equate with leadership though, from a republican stand point, I think other democrats such as Bill Richardson or Chris Dodd had more experience than Clinton and Obama combined, but they didn't seem to appeal to the voters..

About the GI Bill... the concern or fear was that the benefits will lure soldiers and sailors into the civilian world and hurt the military retention. McCain even said that the office comes with serious responsibilities and we can't always take the politically easy route without hurting the country you are sworn to defend, he said his opinion on this subject was more than a convenient campaign pledge, hey I can't argue with that... So there, we all can defend our side and our candidates, things are taken out of context in both sides.

On this issue, Obama could've said that he didn't agree with the president on the opposition to the GI Bill, he didn't have to bring up McCain or say that "McCain thought it was too generous to the veterans", come on, that's not what McCain said at any time, but then again, this is a political game, so Obama felt like saying that... and that's ok, now,after that you better believe that McCain was going to fire back... again, part of the game...

About serving in the military..I personaly have the utmost respect for ALL who served honorably, I think it's a great merit to say the least, but I won't vote for someone just based on that fact alone.

I remember John Kerry, he served, then denounced his purple heart and led the march for other vets to discard and denounce theirs too in a mass ANTI-War protest in the 1960's...not so honorable I think.... OK, I'm done for now... take it easy on me now fellow dems!

Edited June 23, 2008 by ELENATION

[BJean 16]

Well since you must fundamentally agree with McCain, Elenation, I can understand why you think it is perfectly fair for McCain to say that Obama should not speak to matters of national defense or foreign policy. If he can get the general public to buy that B.S., then he may win some votes.

But it is absurd and insulting and hateful and disrespectful and not in the country's best interests for him to say something like that. Just as it was inappropriate as heck for Bush to make the statements he made in front of the Israelis.

To disrespect someone who may well be our next president, to our allies and enemies alike, is irresponsible and assinine. But as far as I am concerned it is not beneath Bush - it's what I have come to expect from him. And he never seems to disappoint in that regard. Unfortunately it looks like McCain is going to fill Bush's shoes perfectly.

Making the claim that not authorizing funding for veterans' furthering their education so that they will not leave the military is really, really self-serving and disgustingly obscene. There should be plenty of incentives to entice young men and women to serve our country. Republicans have always taken the tack of keeping the people down where they want them, time after time. I hope you are one of the extremely wealthy in this country because if you aren't, you should dig a little deeper when you're being so generous to these individuals, and figure out exactly what they are doing to you in their greedy grasp for power and privilege.

I figure the way they sleep at night is when their head sinks into the pillow and they shut their eyes, they are like Scrooge McDuck, they count all the money flopping around in their banks, starting with $1 million...$2 million....$3 million.... and I'm only half kidding.

[ELENATION 0]

Well since you must fundamentally agree with McCain, Elenation, I can understand why you think it is perfectly fair for McCain to say that Obama should not speak to matters of national defense or foreign policy. If he can get the general public to buy that B.S., then he may win some votes.

But it is absurd and insulting and hateful and disrespectful and not in the country's best interests for him to say something like that. Just as it was inappropriate as heck for Bush to make the statements he made in front of the Israelis.

To disrespect someone who may well be our next president, to our allies and enemies alike, is irresponsible and assinine. But as far as I am concerned it is not beneath Bush - it's what I have come to expect from him. And he never seems to disappoint in that regard. Unfortunately it looks like McCain is going to fill Bush's shoes perfectly.

Making the claim that not authorizing funding for veterans' furthering their education so that they will not leave the military is really, really self-serving and disgustingly obscene. There should be plenty of incentives to entice young men and women to serve our country. Republicans have always taken the tack of keeping the people down where they want them, time after time. I hope you are one of the extremely wealthy in this country because if you aren't, you should dig a little deeper when you're being so generous to these individuals, and figure out exactly what they are doing to you in their greedy grasp for power and privilege.

I figure the way they sleep at night is when their head sinks into the pillow and they shut their eyes, they are like Scrooge McDuck, they count all the money flopping around in their banks, starting with $1 million...$2 million....$3 million.... and I'm only half kidding.

Oh BJean, let's not get ugly here.. this discussion has been pretty good so far.. I hope I didn't cross the line and if I did I apologize, love the discussion, but really don't want to fight.

I could be wrong but I don't believe McCain said that Obama shouldn't speak of foreing policy, but rather than Obama has no experience in foreign policy, which is the truth, maybe it's a matter or perception when we hear what they say, so therefore I don't think is BS, Hillary said the same thing about Obama, I agree with her and I'm not a democrat, I don't think is insulting or hateful, I think it's an opinion ,which happens to be insulting to some democrats because they obviously support Obama and everything he does or says, I can understand that, if Obama said something like that about McCain even if it was true, I'm sure most republicans wouldn't like it.. but the truth is the truth, even when it hurts your side or mine, I'm not claiming that mine is perfect and yours is bad by the way, they are just different.

I can see the concern behind the GI bill, I'm not an expert and would have to learn more about it, but I definitely see the point McCain was trying to make. See, I'm not extremely wealthy, but I just happen to disagree that "those individuals" are affecting me with their "greedy frasp for power". I simply don't believe that to be true and I don't agree with it, but I promise I will do more research. So far I've been a republican for almost 30 years since I've lived in this country, started out as the poor to lower working class and have made it to middle class and I'm quiet satisfied with those accomplishments and most I have accomplished during the republican terms, no problem there... I hope I can make it to the wealthy one day... but doubt it... I'm a spender, not so great with money:eek:

I'm not aware that Bush disrespected Obama to our allies and enemies alike... if you are referring to the fact that Bush denounced those who would negotiate with terrorists and radicals , sure it was a remark interpreted as a rebuke to Obama, only because Obama has said that the United States should consider talking with countries like Iran and Syria, I personally don't think Obama should've said that or even consider it, I find it offensive, disrespectful myself, but oh well, Obama and Bush both have the right to say what they feel, even when they make us mad... neither Obama as a possible president of the US should be ridiculed, nor Bush as the president of the US should be ridiculed, but it happens all the time unfortunately..

McCain filling Bush's shoes... hardly.... not that it would bother me if he did, but McCain has faced skepticism among republicans themselves, his maverick style, his willingness to work with democrats, his often deviation from republican orthodoxy, his advocacy of comprehensive immigration reform , all points to someone not cut from the traditional party mold.

BJ I respect your opinion, I mean it, I really do, but on this one, we are just going to agree to disagree, hey you are a democrat and I'm a republican, there is not going to be much we can agree on this subject, even though I've seen you and I agree quiet nicely on other subjects, It's all cool.

Edited June 23, 2008 by ELENATION