I don't understand (goal weight rant)

[Chickie 15]

Perhaps in my world and in my perception it really is differnt - perhaps 225 really IS fatter in Australia than it is in America?

I think you are onto something there.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

As far as I'm concerned, unless someone has specifically asked for advice about setting a goal, it's simply NEVER appropriate to critique anyone's personal yardstick for success.

I agree about critiquing another in this sense but I guess I feel there is a middle ground here.

One big glaring reality for ALL of us is, "Can we really get down to a healthy weight? Ever?" I mean, if we could have without a band we would have done it. Sometimes after losing part of our excess weight we are so thrilled we made it to that goal that we don't want to fail AGAIN so we are happy with where we are at. That isn't to say we can't do better. I'm not suggesting anyone should do anything they don't feel comfortable with but I still think there is another issue to consider.

Perception. I know a 440lb woman that lost 12 pounds and she claimed she could feel the difference, her bra was too big unlike 12lbs ago. Although she measured herself and had not lost any inches (a week out of surgery) she swore she could feel and see the difference. And you know what? She could. But the question is, is there *really* a difference or is it perception?

I'm 3lbs below my goal weight but when I look in the mirror I still see all 252lbs. My perception is that other than my gut looking like an old wrinkly dog, I see no difference. I see pants that I would bet my bottom dollar there is no way I could stick a thigh in there and in reality, they are baggy when I put them on.

What about posts from someone who is 300lbs and they look in a mirror and see 130lbs? They don't see the fat. They can't see the fat.

When we are fat we have a lot of extra insulation and many fat folks are warm all the time, maybe they get hot flashes, maybe they walk across the room and the exercise of just doing that causes them to be hot and sweaty. Ever see the posts where an MO person lost 10lbs and they are now freezing with the less insulation? Don't we really know that isn't likely? They *do* feel those sensations, but are they realistic? Is it real?

We have huge perception issues. Some fat folks see skinny, some skinny folks see fat when they look in a mirror. I see it as all being a part of the head issues we deal with.

Take for example the post on the "at or near goal" forum where a person that had lost a massive amount of weight couldn't see it. Her friends wrapped her in aluminum foil like a mummy, cut along the sides, she stepped out and was finally able to see her body as others see it. That's the first time she saw herself objectively.

I don't think it is a wrong statement to say that sometimes we need a little dose of reality along this path. Sometimes the only other person that understands and sees things more objectively is another fat person. When we could never lose weight and keep it off and suddenly with a band we lose weight and keep it off that is the only goal that matters. Some of the excess weight is gone. We are thrilled and happy to stay with that. It's a goal, it was met. We are satisfied with that because we got to the point somewhere in the past that we never thought we could even manage a mini goal.

I'm not suggesting anyone depend on weight charts or BMI, I am suggesting that we consider perception issues because I tend to think most of us have them along this journey. And no, I'm not even referring to specific people here. I don't know what a healthy weight is for someone I've never seen nor met, but I do know perception issues. They are real, they exist, and they are very hard to get beyond.

[Jachut 487]

Alexandra, I agree with you in principle - but this is the rants and raves forum where such questions ARE asked. Its really not appropriate to ask a lot of the questions that are asked here!

I was thinking about this this morning and wondering why I even care becuase it is everyone's own personal business what they want to weigh.

The analogy I came up with was running. I also absolutely and utterly do not understand why people dont like hard exercise. And they do the same thing - argue that they dont need to do it, walking is just as good etc etc. Well what they mean is not "I powerwalk hard for an hour every day and I"m fit", what they actually mean is "I want to meander round the block and pretend I'm working so just shut up with your silly running talk".

I see it as sad that they dont know what they're missing at all. For the sake of working through a bit of initial pain they could have rewards beyond what they can see now. And they just dont want them, they think those "rewards" are jsut physical, a slightly thinner body that can work a bit harder, when nothing could be further from the truth. Running is about conquering a mountain, there is nothing in my life that has ever made me feel as confident, capable and at peace with myself than running has.

And when people simply dismiss that, not even knowing what they are dismissing, it exasperates me that I cannot convey just what it is they are turning their backs on.

I guess I feel that way about going the whole 9 yards with this weight loss thing. I worry that people are missing a huge part of the journey - the very best bit in fact.

.

[anonemouse 1]

I really didn't mean to start this thread to bash anyone. Truly, I just wanted to try to understand why some people choose to remain obese, when they've got this incredible tool that they can use to reach a healthy weight. I really think it does have a lot to do with perception issues, like other people have said. As fat people, I don't think most of us will ever be able to see ourselves as being the weight we are. I mean, even after losing 25 pounds, I've had people tell me that they can see that I've lost weight. My brother's mother-in-law calls me "Shrinking Lady." But I can't see it. I mean, I know I've lost weight, I know that I'm in a smaller size, but I still can't see the weight loss.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

The analogy I came up with was running. I also absolutely and utterly do not understand why people dont like hard exercise. And they do the same thing - argue that they dont need to do it, walking is just as good etc etc. Well what they mean is not "I powerwalk hard for an hour every day and I"m fit", what they actually mean is "I want to meander round the block and pretend I'm working so just shut up with your silly running talk".

I too, run. I do it daily and you know what? I hate it. I feel like a hamster in a running wheel, it makes me sweat, it makes me breathe too hard, and honestly I'd prefer to be curled up with a great book. I'd prefer to be out with friends having fun and laughing, quite frankly I'd prefer to be getting a nice comfy root canal instead of running.

I run because it is effective and my body is healthier because I do it. I do lots of things I don't like to keep my body healthy. I avoid most junk food, I go to dentists, I get vaccines. I do lots of things to keep fit and healthy but it doesn't mean I like it.

You enjoy running, I enjoy other things. It's just how it is. If someone prefers power walking or even walking there are plenty of studies to show it is better overall due to joint deterioration, etc. that running can potentially cause. If someone says they are power walking and they can tell me what power walking is, I believe them. Just because they prefer walking or power walking over running does not mean they are going at a snail's pace around the block a time or two. The only reason I opt for running over power walking is because running I can get the sucky task over with sooner.

I hate weight training. I think the person that came up with the concept is evil and sadistic and should be shot. I do it because it keeps me fit and healthy but I still hate doing it.

I see it as sad that they dont know what they're missing at all. For the sake of working through a bit of initial pain they could have rewards beyond what they can see now. And they just dont want them, they think those "rewards" are jsut physical, a slightly thinner body that can work a bit harder, when nothing could be further from the truth. Running is about conquering a mountain, there is nothing in my life that has ever made me feel as confident, capable and at peace with myself than running has.

And that is great for you. Not everyone gets the same kind of enjoyment from running. It's a bit like saying that I like chocolate thus I cannot comprehend of the fact that others don't care for it. Some things are just personal preference and just because someone isn't running that does not mean they are meandering around the block smelling the roses along the way. There are plenty of very fit, healthy, slim folks that don't run. Running just isn't a requirement for good health. You happen to enjoy it, that's great for you. We are not all the same, people are individual and unique, it's okay that they are different from you.

And when people simply dismiss that, not even knowing what they are dismissing, it exasperates me that I cannot convey just what it is they are turning their backs on.

I don't dismiss running, I do it. And I still hate it with a passion.

You know, I have another example. You have written repeatedly that you were okay with losing at a slower pace because you wanted to enjoy your food. I don't get it, to me that makes no sense. If you want to be fit shouldn't you want it quickly? Why eat calories that are not necessary to maintain your health or body? Why not take the plunge, cut the calories down to the absolute lowest healthy number, cut out ALL the junk and get to goal? Wasn't goal important enough?

Obviously, I'm not dead serious here, just making a point. You do what works for you but that doesn't mean everyone feels the same glee after running. We are not missing out on something we simply don't enjoy. You prefer running, I prefer seeing that scale drop quickly to get the fat chapter closed in my life.

I guess I feel that way about going the whole 9 yards with this weight loss thing. I worry that people are missing a huge part of the journey - the very best bit in fact.

In some ways I agree here, it's the methods used to get to the point that we are normal size, able to do things we might not have been able to do 20 pounds ago.. etc are where we disagree.

[Jachut 487]

Well, I didnt mean that running was the ony way to achieve that Wasa, you've missed the point entirely - the point I'm making is that not everyone will enjoy running, but that there is a whole different realm of reward, satisfaction, whatever out there for that extra work. I'm talking about pushing yourself that extra mile, not running per se. To stop at OK, easyish, good enough, it just doesnt bring the same, I dont know, complete satisfaction, you know?

Its not about "running" its about pushing yourself further than you ever dared to go, ever dreamed you could go.

When people just cant see the reward that comes for finding the courage to do that, that's frustrating to me.

Its not about getting to 165lb its about changing your entire perception of yourself as a person, achieving something you never thought you could achieve.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Well, I didnt mean that running was the ony way to achieve that Wasa, you've missed the point entirely - the point I'm making is that not everyone will enjoy running, but that there is a whole different realm of reward, satisfaction, whatever out there for that extra work. I'm talking about pushing yourself that extra mile, not running per se. To stop at OK, easyish, good enough, it just doesnt bring the same, I dont know, complete satisfaction, you know?

Its not about "running" its about pushing yourself further than you ever dared to go, ever dreamed you could go.

When people just cant see the reward that comes for finding the courage to do that, that's frustrating to me.

Its not about getting to 165lb its about changing your entire perception of yourself as a person, achieving something you never thought you could achieve.

This is what I really was responding to:

I see it as sad that they dont know what they're missing at all. For the sake of working through a bit of initial pain they could have rewards beyond what they can see now. And they just dont want them, they think those "rewards" are jsut physical, a slightly thinner body that can work a bit harder, when nothing could be further from the truth. Running is about conquering a mountain, there is nothing in my life that has ever made me feel as confident, capable and at peace with myself than running has.

It sure sounds to me like you are saying that if we want to feel what you are, we must run. And... like it.

I see several types of people. One is... I lost some of the weight and I never imagined I could even do that so I'm happy with that.

I understand you to say there is even better quality of life out there with even another 20lbs. There are things I didn't do or do well 20lbs ago. You have to experience it to see the difference. I guess my problem with your post is that you certainly are explaining that if we don't run there is something we are missing in life because it's fun. It's not fun, it sucks. It sucks so bad I have to use the word "suck" because nothing else describes it well enough.

I pushed myself beyond limits I didn't think I could do by cutting calories. I can't imagine willingly eating extra calories that are not necessary to maintain health if the goal is to get fit and healthy. I damn sure didn't enjoy it, I did it because of the final reward.

[nina874 48]

I have 6 kids and run a successful business, most days when I finally get all of the kids and dogs sorted out , the washing done and the housework finished I want to curl up in a ball and sleep, I actually get to watch TV about twice a month.....and no I am not going to give that up to go running!!! I do some resistance training for about 30 mins a day but thats it for me!

What I am saying is that different things have different priorities in peoples lives, I love walking on the beach with the kids and dogs, I want to be healthy but not to fixate on it.

The band for me was about breaking my obssessions with food, I have been very thin before through diet and huge amounts of exercise, and to be honest when I look back I was just as obssessed, only then it was with what I wouldnt eat!! Neither for me represented a balanced and mentally healthy lifestyle.

Each to their own

Nina x

[Jachut 487]

Running is a metaphor, nothing more.

Totally off topic but I think we've exhausted goal weights anyway. So as an aside Wasa - come on! Surely you cant put your hand on your heart and tell me you dont feel great satisfaction in what you've achieved - making yourself run, keeping those calories low. Yes it hurt the whole time, but how freaking fantastic and proud of yourself do you feel now?

Running feels like utter crap to me too when I'm actually doing it, physically speaking, lol. I trudged along in my half marathon swearing at myself and asking myself what on earth I was doing this for. It freaking hurt, it was HORRIBLE! But the sheer awesome achievement of it at the end (oh, and the endorphin rush when it kicked in), I've scarcely talked about anything else since.

Surely you have an almost unreal fealing of "my god, I've actaully DONE it!! All that painful calorie counting, self denial, etc etc, I've actually DONE it!". Because you have. To stop halfway to that, well I can accept that people *think* the end doesnt justify the means, but I think they dont really quite understand the feelings it brings.

Its not the act that's joyous, its the achievement, the mastery over your own body and the mental breaking down of barriers.

But Nina, I do totally agree with you. There's no point being obsessive about it or you dont have a healthy lifestyle and t hat's where counting calories and I part company - but that's where the original debate started. Going out for a run five days a week for an hour isnt obsessive if you love it. I choose to do that rather than watch something on telly, or sit on the computer. Its not obsessive at all and takes up very little of my time. Plenty of people pursue a hobby for five hours a week but its strange how its only called obsessive if its exercise and weight related.

[nina874 48]

Oh lord I swear I have an obssessive type personality, never for housework though eeewww!!

I was obssessed with being pregnant I was my absolute happiest when waddling....look where that got me!

When I started my company I lived, ate and slept it,and hell yes I am proud of my achievement.

I do hear what you are saying and didnt mean to say that just that type of thing is obsessive , hey look at how quickly I have got addicted to LBT!!

Nina x

[Jachut 487]

Yeah, look at this post, lol. I"m exhausted from trying to explain myself.

I suspect I havent even gotten the message across that I wanted to convey and probably insulted half of LBT in the process.

Oh well, I can enjoy all the secret pleasures of being 163lb and running five days a week all on my own. If people arent curious about it and happy where they are, more power to em. I'm glad I chose to push harder.

[SlimTarnishedDiva 1]

I agree about critiquing another in this sense but I guess I feel there is a middle ground here.

One big glaring reality for ALL of us is, "Can we really get down to a healthy weight? Ever?" I mean, if we could have without a band we would have done it. Sometimes after losing part of our excess weight we are so thrilled we made it to that goal that we don't want to fail AGAIN so we are happy with where we are at. That isn't to say we can't do better. I'm not suggesting anyone should do anything they don't feel comfortable with but I still think there is another issue to consider.

Perception. I know a 440lb woman that lost 12 pounds and she claimed she could feel the difference, her bra was too big unlike 12lbs ago. Although she measured herself and had not lost any inches (a week out of surgery) she swore she could feel and see the difference. And you know what? She could. But the question is, is there *really* a difference or is it perception?

I'm 3lbs below my goal weight but when I look in the mirror I still see all 252lbs. My perception is that other than my gut looking like an old wrinkly dog, I see no difference. I see pants that I would bet my bottom dollar there is no way I could stick a thigh in there and in reality, they are baggy when I put them on.

What about posts from someone who is 300lbs and they look in a mirror and see 130lbs? They don't see the fat. They can't see the fat.

When we are fat we have a lot of extra insulation and many fat folks are warm all the time, maybe they get hot flashes, maybe they walk across the room and the exercise of just doing that causes them to be hot and sweaty. Ever see the posts where an MO person lost 10lbs and they are now freezing with the less insulation? Don't we really know that isn't likely? They *do* feel those sensations, but are they realistic? Is it real?

We have huge perception issues. Some fat folks see skinny, some skinny folks see fat when they look in a mirror. I see it as all being a part of the head issues we deal with.

Take for example the post on the "at or near goal" forum where a person that had lost a massive amount of weight couldn't see it. Her friends wrapped her in aluminum foil like a mummy, cut along the sides, she stepped out and was finally able to see her body as others see it. That's the first time she saw herself objectively.

I don't think it is a wrong statement to say that sometimes we need a little dose of reality along this path. Sometimes the only other person that understands and sees things more objectively is another fat person. When we could never lose weight and keep it off and suddenly with a band we lose weight and keep it off that is the only goal that matters. Some of the excess weight is gone. We are thrilled and happy to stay with that. It's a goal, it was met. We are satisfied with that because we got to the point somewhere in the past that we never thought we could even manage a mini goal.

I'm not suggesting anyone depend on weight charts or BMI, I am suggesting that we consider perception issues because I tend to think most of us have them along this journey. And no, I'm not even referring to specific people here. I don't know what a healthy weight is for someone I've never seen nor met, but I do know perception issues. They are real, they exist, and they are very hard to get beyond.

WOW! Is there a thin(no pun intended) line between perception and imagination? When I look in the mirror I see a fat chick, the same fat chick that everyone else see. Thing is, I actually do like and love the woman I am stirring at...I just would like to see a little less of her. I think it is quite mean to tell someone who have set a high goal weight that they are afraid of failure, or that they are imagining that a skinny woman is stirring back at them in the mirror. I never was a SMALL woman, and I don't want to be SMALL now.. Not because I don't believe I can make it to what the charts say... I personally want to be a size 16/18 shoot even a 20, because it works for me. What's wrong with a woman being plus sized? Does me wanting to stay an ample sized woman after weight loss unrealistic, no it doesn't especially since I am not going on societies perception of me.

[phyllisc 0]

Diva,

I think some people just feel good about themselves and have a lot of confidence and don't need to over achieve or strive for some unattainable perfection. Attitude is everything and if you like the way you look it probably comes through and others will see you the same way. Screw them if they don't. Inner beauty and self confidence shines through. Likewise if you are unhappy with the way you look that is going to be reflected in your appearance also. There are women who will never be happy with the way they look, even though they may have what it takes physically, they just are not confident or happy with themselves. Self esteem does not always come with a slender fit body. Some people just have to keep pushing to prove to themselves that they are better, the best or superior to others. I think they sometimes do this by pointing out to others that they are somehow not up to snuff.

Hell, I walk around like I am the hottest thing in town and it is only going to get better.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

WOW! Is there a thin(no pun intended) line between perception and imagination? When I look in the mirror I see a fat chick, the same fat chick that everyone else see. Thing is, I actually do like and love the woman I am stirring at...I just would like to see a little less of her. I think it is quite mean to tell someone who have set a high goal weight that they are afraid of failure, or that they are imagining that a skinny woman is stirring back at them in the mirror. I never was a SMALL woman, and I don't want to be SMALL now.. Not because I don't believe I can make it to what the charts say... I personally want to be a size 16/18 shoot even a 20, because it works for me. What's wrong with a woman being plus sized? Does me wanting to stay an ample sized woman after weight loss unrealistic, no it doesn't especially since I am not going on societies perception of me.

No, I don't think there is a thin line between perception and imagination, I think they are completely different topics where one has nothing to do with the other.

Nobody is questioning if anyone loves him/herself or not, that isn't the issue and has nothing in the world to do with my point. The issue is that the closer one gets to goal the more the head issues that got us fat to begin with - begin to change to new head issues. Or maybe there are just issues we didn't recognize before, I don't really know.

I don't know why you seem so defensive here. I have not suggested you pick any other goal than you have. I have not claimed anything is wrong with where you want to be. I have pointed out an issue that many of us seem to experience. Perception issues. For me the more weight I lost the more perception issues I had. I thought I was just nutty and bizarre, I had no clue how common this is.

With that said, there most certainly are some folks that set a high weight goal in fear of failure, they post on these boards and they will tell you the same thing for themselves. I never claimed you are one of them and I did specifically explain that I wasn't referring to anyone here. I also explained that I will not pretend to know the ideal weight of someone I have never seen.

[Chickie 15]

Diva,

I think some people just feel good about themselves and have a lot of confidence and don't need to over achieve or strive for some unattainable perfection. Attitude is everything and if you like the way you look it probably comes through and others will see you the same way. Screw them if they don't. Inner beauty and self confidence shines through. Likewise if you are unhappy with the way you look that is going to be reflected in your appearance also. There are women who will never be happy with the way they look, even though they may have what it takes physically, they just are not confident or happy with themselves. Self esteem does not always come with a slender fit body. Some people just have to keep pushing to prove to themselves that they are better, the best or superior to others. I think they sometimes do this by pointing out to others that they are somehow not up to snuff.

Hell, I walk around like I am the hottest thing in town and it is only going to get better.

So, people who try to get down to a lower weight are not confident, and unhappy with the way they look?