Intermittent Fasting

[FluffyChix 17,415]

Dr. Fung is kinda "late" to the fasting show and based his work on that of previous doctors such as Dr. Walter Longo and Dr. Krista Varady.

But before Dr. Varady came Dr. Johnson who wrote the original Alternate Day Diet book. I've actually spoken to him through emails when I was doing ADF with caloric restriction. We discussed the disruption of circadian rhythms that can occur especially in women as a result of fasting/caloric restrictions.

I did ADF with caloric control/low carb while I was undergoing chemo/radiation/surgery. I had an over 60% reduction in tumor size (very atypical for my kind of cancer). The onc could not believe it. I also had fewer side effects than some of the women who went through treatment at the same time.

Here is Dr. Varady's book.

Here is Dr. Johnson's book.

You might find them interesting to read. Dr. Longo's work is really very very compelling. Also, he's a long distance runner and vegetarian (or vegan) if I remember correctly? I have planned to do the 5:2 or maybe ADF after reaching maintenance as a way of controlling insulin and regain.

I used to blog about, but haven't updated it in a long time. There are some good articles there. It's called Fast Days/Healing Days. I'd started doing JUDDD about 4 months before cancer dx and had started this blog. (Johnson's Up Day Down Day Diet), coincidentally, a few months later 5:2 hit the UK and went crazy. That's a good book too btw--as is Dr. Moseley's 800cal diet for diabetes (new book).

Edited October 27, 2017 by FluffyChix

[Apple1 2,572]

3 minutes ago, niseys4 said:

Hello Apple1! First I'd like to thank you for opening up this discusion. I understand the health benefits of IF but im not understanding the 5:2 or the 16:8! What I understand IF to be, & please correct me if Im wrong, is no eating from your last meal of the day till your first meal the next day. Like a 12 hour window of no eating. For example; if my last meal was @ 6pm then my next meal will not be until 6am the next day! Is that somewhat how IF works? Please break it down for me!
Im only 3 mos post op & agree I should wait till I reach my goal weight but Im really interested in learning more about IF from those who have actually tried it!

Sent from my SM-T530NU using BariatricPal mobile app

I am still in the learning phase myself and have not tried this yet, but I do plan on incorporating the 16/8 type of fasting. Basically you limit your eating to an 8 hour window of your choosing. For me it will be from 12:00-8:00pm. I will eat my first meal of the day at 12 and finish by 8:00pm. I will still eat my normal healthy diet and the same amount of calories, I will just fast from 8:00pm till 12:00 the next day. I will still consume Water, coffee, and tea during the 16 hour fast. I hope this helps. I encourage you to purchase one of Dr. Fungs books on the subject or check out youtube.

[Waler 330]

well I guess a degree in anatomy and physiology, and experience as a genetic research lab tech means I do not know as much as your internet information or a fad diets trying to sell book. If I sound a bit insulted it is well because I am by your last comment. I have multiple degrees and experience in see a numerous disease conditions and a word you should research "homeostasis". Your books claim diet "may" effect genetic, I was part of the research team that worked on genetic expression of MRNA on traumatic head injuries and gene expression. anyone who tells you they know diet effects gene expression should be selling snake oil, because we do not know that to be true at this time. My final comment is if you choose to base your life on books that people are trying to sell you and the internet then you will fail on this journey, its just that simple. There is not quick fix, there is not magic tricks, your body needs to be retained in a steady rhythm. anything else is smoke and mirrors, so please have a little class and do not tell someone who does genetic research that they don`t know what they are talking about when it comes to the human condition

[BoiledDenim 9]

IF was a tool I've used in the past with excellent results, and something I plan to employ again eventually. It worked great with very low carb diet.

I worked shift work, so not having to pack a lunch frees up my time and mind to focus on other things. Actually, whenever I'd eat Breakfast, I'd be starving 2 hours later, and all throughout the day I felt a powerful hunger just hours after meals. I didn't like that. During fasts of 18:6, it was an appetite killer for me. Then in the evenings, I'd have a nice, big meal of Protein, fats, and little-no carbs. Extremely satiating.

I know it's something you'll get differing opinions about, and certainly it's not for everyone. My experience was a great one, and hope very much to implement it somewhere down the line post-op if/when the restriction lessens.

[niseys4 130]

I am still in the learning phase myself and have not tried this yet, but I do plan on incorporating the 16/8 type of fasting. Basically you limit your eating to an 8 hour window of your choosing. For me it will be from 12:00-8:00pm. I will eat my first meal of the day at 12 and finish by 8:00pm. I will still eat my normal healthy diet and the same amount of calories, I will just fast from 8:00pm till 12:00 the next day. I will still consume Water, coffee, and tea during the 16 hour fast. I hope this helps. I encourage you to purchase one of Dr. Fungs books on the subject or check out youtube.

Yes that did help! Also when I continued to read the other post I have come to understand this much better! In fact I heard of this way before my surgery & realized this is what I have been doing all along without thinking about it!
I normally eat from 7am to 5 or 6 pm with no snacking before bed! I hate having food in my stomach now while sleeping. On my gym days I try to have my coffee around 6am then have a Protein Shake at least by 8am. Then I dont eat any food until 11am or I'll have the 2nd scoop of Protein (which totals 50g) in order to make sure Im getting my required protein for the day! 1 thing that I try now since my surgery, is to make my last meal between 5 or 6pm everyday including most weekends! As you know at this stage of post op my caloric intake is 600-800. More closer to 800 on my work out days. I log my food intake on the "MyfitnessPal" app in order for me to keep track of not just my calories but also my protein, fats & carbs! Am I doing this correctly?

Sent from my SM-T530NU using BariatricPal mobile app

[Apple1 2,572]

9 minutes ago, Waler said:

well I guess a degree in anatomy and physiology, and experience as a genetic research lab tech means I do not know as much as your internet information or a fad diets trying to sell book. If I sound a bit insulted it is well because I am by your last comment. I have multiple degrees and experience in see a numerous disease conditions and a word you should research "homeostasis". Your books claim diet "may" effect genetic, I was part of the research team that worked on genetic expression of MRNA on traumatic head injuries and gene expression. anyone who tells you they know diet effects gene expression should be selling snake oil, because we do not know that to be true at this time. My final comment is if you choose to base your life on books that people are trying to sell you and the internet then you will fail on this journey, its just that simple. There is not quick fix, there is not magic tricks, your body needs to be retained in a steady rhythm. anything else is smoke and mirrors, so please have a little class and do not tell someone who does genetic research that they don`t know what they are talking about when it comes to the human condition

I did not mean to offend you. You said you were a lab tech not that you had multiple degrees in Genetics and anatomy and physiology. What was your major? I have degrees also. but that doesn't really mean anything, I can still be wrong about a subject I have knowledge in. My degree is entomology and wildlife conservation, but I don't claim to know everything there is to know about insects, far from from it.

I am doing research on this subject through books and yes the internet. I am looking for articles that are backed up by science. There is a lot of evidence that intermittent fasting does have good benefits and this is without restricting calories any further,

[Apple1 2,572]

For @Waler.

Here are a few studies on the benefits of IF.

Mattson has contributed to several other studies on intermittent fasting and caloric restriction. In one, overweight adults with moderate asthma consumed only 20% of their normal calorie intake on alternate days (Free Radical Bio Med 2007;42:665–74). Participants who adhered to the diet lost 8% of their initial body weight over eight weeks. They also saw a decrease in markers of oxidative stress and inflammation, and improvement of asthma-related symptoms and several quality-of-life indicators.

In another study, Mattson and colleagues explored the effects of intermittent and continuous energy restriction on weight loss and various biomarkers (for conditions including breast cancer, diabetes and cardiovascular disease) among young overweight woman (Int J Obesity 2011;35:714–27). They found that intermittent restriction was as effective as continuous restriction for improving weight loss, insulin sensitivity and other health biomarkers.

Just go to pubmed and search on the subject. There are a ton of studies that have been published. I am working my way through the ones I have access to.

[Berry78 4,261]

I do want to point out that those studies are performed on your typical people off the street that are consuming 2500 calories on an average day. (Many of us before surgery). Not sure they'd be applicable for us.. at least not until we are able to consume a normal amount of calories again. All those benefits, we've already received from the surgery. I doubt we'd derive MORE benefit from doubling up.... but I dunno..

[Waler 330]

My only comment from here as I wash my hands of this is simply this. our body's require balance, everything out bodies do require a balance of many factors. If you throw those balances off many things can and will go wrong over time. Now I can site many books and internet articles that will tell you getting a lobotomy will cure everything .. we know the facts the true facts are much different. These people who write these fad diet books are looking to do nothing more then sell books, that is what they do, and they will twist science fact much like a politician to meet there needs and support there book sales. I will state again there is not magic formula, and to base things on the way our ancestors did things is utter nonsense. The average life expectancy was much lower than it is today, that should be a big hint that something is wrong with that thinking. But hey people then also thought you could be cured by dancing around a fire and killing live chickens. If that is the type of logic you want to apply to your health have right at it, but some of the info you have put out there can be very dangerous to peoples health and well being given the right conditions. So I take exception when people disregard fact and science for a quick fix. It took us time to develop the problems that brought us all here and it takes time to get things back to where they should be. It is a very simple concept if you intake less calories then you expend you lose weight. If you do not intakes the proper amount of nutrients over the course of a day you will run into problems, might not be today, might not be tomorrow but it will catch up to you.

[FluffyChix 17,415]

3 minutes ago, Apple1 said:

For @Waler.

Here are a few studies on the benefits of IF.

Mattson has contributed to several other studies on intermittent fasting and caloric restriction. In one, overweight adults with moderate asthma consumed only 20% of their normal calorie intake on alternate days (Free Radical Bio Med 2007;42:665–74). Participants who adhered to the diet lost 8% of their initial body weight over eight weeks. They also saw a decrease in markers of oxidative stress and inflammation, and improvement of asthma-related symptoms and several quality-of-life indicators.

In another study, Mattson and colleagues explored the effects of intermittent and continuous energy restriction on weight loss and various biomarkers (for conditions including breast cancer, diabetes and cardiovascular disease) among young overweight woman (Int J Obesity 2011;35:714–27). They found that intermittent restriction was as effective as continuous restriction for improving weight loss, insulin sensitivity and other health biomarkers.

Just go to pubmed and search on the subject. There are a ton of studies that have been published. I am working my way through the ones I have access to.

Yep, Mattson is one of the lead researchers in the field. I believe Dr. Johnson first got interested in this when he was looking at solutions for asthma patients in Louisiana. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577199/.

[Apple1 2,572]

I don’t ever see myself consuming 2500 calories in a day. That may be what the typical American person on the western diet eats, but that is not healthy.

I see your point though.

[Apple1 2,572]

3 minutes ago, Waler said:

It is a very simple concept if you intake less calories then you expend you lose weight. If you do not intakes the proper amount of nutrients over the course of a day you will run into problems, might not be today, might not be tomorrow but it will catch up to you.

It has been proven that calories in does not always equal calories out. People with metabolic syndrome do not process calories in this way. It is not that simple.

I do not put my faith in fake science or fad diets. I research everything I do very throughly. It is fine to disagree. Debate is what keeps us thinking and searching out the facts.

[FluffyChix 17,415]

10 minutes ago, Waler said:

My only comment from here as I wash my hands of this is simply this. our body's require balance, everything out bodies do require a balance of many factors. If you throw those balances off many things can and will go wrong over time. Now I can site many books and internet articles that will tell you getting a lobotomy will cure everything .. we know the facts the true facts are much different. These people who write these fad diet books are looking to do nothing more then sell books, that is what they do, and they will twist science fact much like a politician to meet there needs and support there book sales. I will state again there is not magic formula, and to base things on the way our ancestors did things is utter nonsense. The average life expectancy was much lower than it is today, that should be a big hint that something is wrong with that thinking. But hey people then also thought you could be cured by dancing around a fire and killing live chickens. If that is the type of logic you want to apply to your health have right at it, but some of the info you have put out there can be very dangerous to peoples health and well being given the right conditions. So I take exception when people disregard fact and science for a quick fix. It took us time to develop the problems that brought us all here and it takes time to get things back to where they should be. It is a very simple concept if you intake less calories then you expend you lose weight. If you do not intakes the proper amount of nutrients over the course of a day you will run into problems, might not be today, might not be tomorrow but it will catch up to you.

It's been a long time since I read the research, but as I remember with Dr. Longo and his longevity experiments, I think the postulation was that caloric restriction (around 1400kcals/day) was enough to give a difference in telomere length? Again, don't trust my memory though. If that's the case, then our WLS diets are already defacto caloric limiters.

And I've also read/studied about how the body prefers homeostatic systems and works hard with feedback loops to maintain those balances. The idea of ADF with caloric restriction or 16:8 went against that...and always made me question. But epigenetics is fairly new. So it's interesting to see if new knowledge develops.

Dr. Richard Bernstein the diabetes doc maintains that the body has a 24hour memory for food. That's why to keep his patients with as small of a post-prandial spike in insulin as possible, he advocates eating the same macro quantities at each meal - day to day- and at the same time of each meal. So for instance, Breakfast would be 6g carbs, 3oz Protein and fat to satisfy at 7am (no more than 30 mins of waking). Next day you would have the same meal comp at the same time and that repeats for each meal. lunch and dinner are both 12g carbs, 3oz protein and fat to satisfy. Then meals spaced 4-6hours between. This is all to keep the body functioning on as little outside insulin treatment as possible. The plan works. He's helped thousands!

Edited October 27, 2017 by FluffyChix

[Apple1 2,572]

I don’t really understand why instituting a slightly longer fasting period would be so negative and why some would resist the idea so strongly. If you eat your dinner st 6:00 pm and don’t snack, then sleep in till 9:00 am and eat around 10:00am you have fasted for 16 hours without even thinking about it. I would argue that many people who don’t snack after dinner are practicing IF without actually planning to.

Is it bad simply because a person makes a conscious decision to do it? This is a real question.

[FluffyChix 17,415]

Don't know the answer to that. Some pre-diabetics, diabetics have Dawn Phenomenon--where the pancreas dumps it's insulin somewhere in the wee small hours of night (around 4am). The blood sugar slowly rises from then on out until you eat and break the fast. It's why Dr. B. wants his patients to eat within 30mins of waking and why Breakfast is the meal with the lowest carb allotment (6g rather than 12g). I do know that my BGs continually rise in a fasted state from waking until the afternoon when they fall down to the lowest levels of the day.

Oddly enough, I'm eating more now and higher slow-acting carb/fiber than I have in so very long time. I'm eating 3meals + 3 Snacks and eating at the same time each day. And I'm losing weight at 1500cals/day. Which is unheard of for me. And my A1c has dropped to 5.3 (from 6 or a 6.9). It's all such a perplexing but fascinating n=1 experiment for me. Cuz I do believe that the body needs time off from eating to effect cellular repair/scavenging/regeneration...

Edited October 27, 2017 by FluffyChix