Proteinaholic by Dr Garth Davis

[Apple1 2,572]

16 minutes ago, Berry78 said:

Not everyone that develops diabetes is obese, and not everyone that is obese develops diabetes.. so there has to be a piece that I'm not understanding yet...

I think part of the problem is that some normal weight adults are really type 1.5, but are misdiagnosed as type 2. There are a few different types. However, most cases of type 2 are related to insulin resistance which is caused by a build up of fat in the muscle cells which blocks the insulin receptors. If the insulin can't get in the muscles blood sugar rises.

If you eat a very low carb diet you can keep your blood sugar at near normal levels as long as you stick to the diet and exercise. You haven't cured diabetes though because as soon as you eat something with high carb your blood sugar will shoot up yet again.

Once you switch to a low fat WFPB diet and get the fat out of your cells your body can once again process carbs normally as long as your pancreas hasn't stopped producing enough Insulin.

Calorie density would only apply to eating foods high in saturated fats. If I ate a bowl of whole grains with very little fat it would not be the same as eating steak or some chicken.

[Apple1 2,572]

7 minutes ago, FluffyChix said:

Have you read this book by Michael Mosely? I've read some of his other work and in general I'm fascinated with the SIRT gene research and epigenetics.

I haven't read his any of his stuff, but just the brief look I took tells me he is a low carb proponent. The problem is this country was never really on a low fat diet. Yes consumption of refined carbs along with continuing to eat saturated fats in animal products has led to the obesity problems and type 2 diabetes. I agree with that.

The problem with low carb diets and type 2 diabetes is as soon as you eat any high carb meals your blood sugar will shoot up because you haven't really cured the insulin resistance you are just controlling the symptoms. I know because I tried it for quite sometime. I would be eating 20-30g total carbs daily and have excellent bs, but if I decided to have a piece of birthday cake or a bowl of brown rice, my bs could go as high as 160-180 easy. I was still very much insulin resistant. My body could not handle a meal with more than about 15g of carbs.

Happily that isn't a problem for me anymore. I really hope you experience the same when you have your surgery.

[FluffyChix 17,415]

@Apple1 Actually, I don't mean to contradict you, but in my opinion, what you were experiencing from going from eating a low carb diet where you were in lipolysis (fat burning mode), to eating sugar or high carbs is a well-known phenomenon in the low carb world. Most of the low carb docs know of this. It is a benign blood sugar reaction--in many cases.

That is why they will tell you that if you've been low carbing and are going to have a glucose tolerance test, then you must go back to being a carb burner (glycolysis) for a minimum of 3 days prior to the test--where you have to eat a minimum of 150g of carbs per day in order to have an accurate picture of what's happening in the GTT.

It's almost in the nature of being a reactive hypoglycemic event where your sugars go super high, then crash. It can cause the same symptoms of dumping--fast heart rate, sweating, nausea, the big D, feeling super bad, etc. Happened to me once from having a margarita after years of low carbing.

That doesn't necessarily indicate a persons diabetes 2 is out of control again--but it can.

Edited September 27, 2017 by FluffyChix

[Apple1 2,572]

59 minutes ago, FluffyChix said:

That doesn't necessarily indicate a persons diabetes 2 is out of control again--but it can.

I respectfully disagree. It wasn't just a temporary reaction. My bs would take days to come back down even on my medication, I doubt this would happen to a non-diabetic. Low carb diets do not cure type 2 diabetes, they simple mask the symptoms. I will agree that they improve the health of the diabetics following them because they help to control bs, For me low carb never was a cure, it was just a way to control bs along with taking 2 types of medications. Wouldn't it be much better to actually solve the cause and prevent it from happening in the first place?

There are many examples of type 2 diabetics that have been cured or put in remission (how ever you want to say it) by adopting a low fat WFPB diet and exercise.. These people are now able to eat whole grains, fruit, and even potatoes as a part of a nutritious diet and no longer have any bs problems. If you are interested look for success stories following Forks Over Knife Diet, or look at the many success stories on Dr. Mcdougall's website, or Dr. Garth Davis, or Dr. Neal Barnard.

[Apple1 2,572]

@FluffyChix are you saying that low carb diets cure type 2 diabetes?

If you are just saying that they help you gain excellent control of blood sugar then, yes I agree. The problem is you then must eliminate all of the healthy unrefined complex carbs to maintain this tight control. That can be very hard to do for many people, hence all of the complications so many people end up with.

[FluffyChix 17,415]

@Apple1 I don't discount your experience. I believe that there are many paths to the same result. And what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. The information I shared doesn't come from me, but from biochemists and doctors in medicine--also from my oncologist who is a proponent of the whole foods, plant based diet.

Not trying to be argumentative by any stretch. I do want to add that you cannot 100% attribute your blood sugar control to your new WHPB diet. The surgery has also altered your hormonal chemistry and physiology and does play a significant part in your new found blood sugar control. (Which is fabulous!!!)

Edited September 27, 2017 by FluffyChix

[FluffyChix 17,415]

13 minutes ago, Apple1 said:

@FluffyChix are you saying that low carb diets cure type 2 diabetes?

If you are just saying that they help you gain excellent control of blood sugar then, yes I agree. The problem is you then must eliminate all of the healthy unrefined complex carbs to maintain this tight control. That can be very hard to do for many people, hence all of the complications so many people end up with.

I actually believe that any type of diet that reduces weight and limits caloric consumption "can" put diabetes into remission or a dormant state--regardless of macrobiotic content. It will do it until such a time as recidivism occurs or a threshold of insulin resistance is re-acquired. I think perhaps the only "almost curative" method of curing diabetes is through WLS (for some). But that may be partly mediated by caloric consumption and weight. We do see some WLS patients re-develop their diabetes and have to go back onto medicines. So, I'm not sure that once acquired, diabetes can ever be cured. It can however, be put into long term remission as long as many factors are controlled such as: weight, activity which all speak to insulin production and resistance levels, degree of initial impairment prior to intervention, etc.--but this is only my opinion based on little else other than 17 years of reading about the subject (which means nothing at all).

Edited September 27, 2017 by FluffyChix

[Apple1 2,572]

1 minute ago, FluffyChix said:

I do want to add that you cannot attribute your blood sugar control to your new WHPB diet. The surgery has also altered your hormonal chemistry and physiology and does play a significant part in your new found blood sugar control. (Which is fabulous!!!)

Absolutely correct. The surgery cured me and I hope it does so for you. I was referring other success stories of people who have cured type 2 diabetes by diet alone. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I agree what works for one may not work for another. The best chances for success with any method, WLS or diet changes, come from people that have not had diabetes for very long or on insulin for many years, according to the statistics I have read.

[Apple1 2,572]

2 minutes ago, FluffyChix said:

We do see some WLS patients re-develop their diabetes and have to go back onto medicines.

I want to research this more as I have read this also. I am wondering if it is because of the high fat diet, high Protein, low carb diets many WLS patients are following? Or is it because the person was too far along to have a lasting cure and their pancreas will no longer produce enough insulin?

[FluffyChix 17,415]

1 minute ago, Apple1 said:

I want to research this more as I have read this also. I am wondering if it is because of the high fat diet, high Protein, low carb diets many WLS patients are following? Or is it because the person was too far along to have a lasting cure and their pancreas will no longer produce enough insulin?

The people I've seen have been members of a WLS board, who announce that they are back on their metformin or insulin or diabetes drugs. I've no proof, but would suspect that they are "cheating" and eating C.R.A.P., but that's pretty uncharitable of me. Maybe they were just "too far gone," that by the time the absorption issue resolved post WLS, their diabetes came out of remission? Or maybe their beta cells finally gave out? Dunno...

[Newme17 3,444]

18 hours ago, Apple1 said:

For the type 2 diabetics reading this thread. You should really read the book. Type 2 diabetes is caused by fat clogging up the cells in your muscles which leads to insulin resistance. Eating a low carb diet solves the symptom of high blood sugar because you are not giving your body any carbs to process. You can be cured of diabetes or at the very least reduce your medication by eliminating fats from your diet.

If only my mother would listen to this...... smh

[Newme17 3,444]

1 hour ago, Apple1 said:

There are many examples of type 2 diabetics that have been cured or put in remission (how ever you want to say it) by adopting a low fat WFPB diet and exercise.

Ever wonder why these folks have results like these (even WLS patients without this way of eating)....their body FAT content was lowered. Remove the fat and your body can process sugars the way it's meant to. Problem with the western ways of the world, people still are stuck on the lie that "sugars are bad for me." So, even if diabetes is in remission and/or cured....they're still thinking "carbs are bad for me"

@Apple1 I'm soooooooo PROUD of you for coming to the revelations and sciences of how the body works!!! You are a testament for all those who used to have diabetes and can eat responsibly again and not worry about those wonderful complex carbohydrates! Keep it up hon. You will be an inspiration for others.

[Berry78 4,261]

Ok, so this is what I've gleaned so far..

Muscle cells have a "back door" for glucose to enter without needing insulin. Fat cells and the liver need insulin.

Exercise seems to be the way to decrease insulin resistance (IR).

Higher dairy consumption is linked to increased IR. (The study didn't count cheese.. it looked at liquid milk and yogurt).

Omega 3 fish oils had some protective effects for prevention of IR, but once the resistance is established, it can't reverse it.

Calorie restriction alone had a small effect on IR. Exercise alone had no effect on IR. Exercise combined with caloric restriction had a big effect.

The US consumption of red meat has decreased since the 1960's, but chicken consumption has gone up dramatically. Our combined meat, chicken, and fish consumption has increased from 110 pounds a year (per capita) to 150 pounds a year.

Our added sweeteners have increased dramatically. In 1820 we consumed about 8 pounds a year of added sweeteners. In 1920 we consumed about 75 pounds of added sweeteners, and consumption leveled off until about 1980 when it began climbing again, up to a high in 2000 of about 110 pounds per person, per year. It's gone down slightly, but still around a hundred pounds a year or so. These are rough estimates, but the idea that we're eating 1/3 of a pound of sugar (or HFCS) per day is sickening.

Our added fats have increased from a little over 30 pounds per person to over 50 pounds per person between 1970 and 2010. The biggest jump was right before the year 2000 when there was a dramatic increase in added cooking/salad oils (specifically soybean oil). Saturated fat consumption from beef tallow/lard, and butter have remained consistent and low.

As much as these authors want to point to red meat and butter as causing all these problems, these are not the foods that have increased! We've increased our fructose (in high fructose corn syrup), our chicken, and our soybean oil.

What does it all mean? Well, I haven't finished yet.. but the simple answer is to decrease your calories and increase your exercise.

Here is an interesting chart showing fatty acid composition of various fats/oils.

http://web.pdx.edu/~wamserc/C336S12/fat.pdf

[Apple1 2,572]

Every book I have read recently on the WFPB way of eating recommends not eating any animal products for the best health and disease prevention,( Proteinaholic, Starch Solution, The cheese Trap).

Cheese is concentrated dairy so it is even worse then just consuming milk. It contains a substance, Casomorphin,that is in the opiate class and is addictive. That explains why it has been harder for me to resist adding a little cheese then giving up anything else.

I agree calorie restriction is a big part of the puzzle, but based on my almost year long experiment with low carb, higher fat and Protein eating, if you don't get rid of the fat, you don't really get rid of insulin resistance, at least in my case. I was eating 900-1000 calories with most of my calories coming from fats and Proteins. My bs numbers were excellent. I would stick with this diet for 3 months and then go off plan and eat some complex carbs for a few weeks and watch my bs numbers steadily climb back up despite still taking my 2500mg metformin and daily injections of victoza. Then I would get strict again and watch my numbers go back down and rinse and repeat. When I would go off the low carb diet, I wasn't eating a lot of bad refined carbs either, it was mostly whole grains, potatoes,and fruit. During this time I did lose weight. I was 255 and lost down to 208 before having my surgery. My A1C dropped from 11.1% to 6.2%. My total cholesterol and triglycerides went up, so much so, that my doctor wanted to put me on statins. I refused because my dh has been on them for years and suffered the side effects. All I was doing on the low carb diet was controlling my diabetes, and for some people that may be enough, but I wasn't satisfied. I was living in denial and sticking to that diet by my will power alone. Maybe if I had stuck with it and lost enough weight to get to a normal BMI my experiences would have been different, but that way of eating was unsustainable for me, based on my periods of non-compliance.

I had come to the conclusion that I had two choices, stick to the low carb way of eating for life and keep all of the medications, or have WLS and go for the cure. Even after having surgery I was convinced I had to keep eating low carb. It is so liberating to know I can eat a healthy diet now without all of that fat. I really wish I had come across these resources sooner, because I honestly believe I could have cured my diabetes without surgery eating this way. I have read so many testimonials from people who have really cured their diabetes eating a WFPB oil free diet.

So based on my experiences, if you are calorie restricting without eating low fat, you won't experience true remission of the diabetes. By that I mean, you won't be able to eat complex carbs, whole grains, fruits,and starchy vegetables, without a spike in your blood sugars to unsafe levels. This is my experience and I realize everyone is different with different levels of exercise and medical issues.

[Apple1 2,572]

1 hour ago, Berry78 said:

Our added fats have increased from a little over 30 pounds per person to over 50 pounds per person between 1970 and 2010. The biggest jump was right before the year 2000 when there was a dramatic increase in added cooking/salad oils (specifically soybean oil). Saturated fat consumption from beef tallow/lard, and butter have remained consistent and low.

This is the biggest reason for obesity and type 2 diabetes in this country!!! chicken and dairy are not good for us so the increase in eating these didn't help matters.