I won't follow the herd any more...

[anonemouse 1]

Like I said, I just want to NOT be lumped in with a group that gets so much abuse. You can't expect me to just sit idly by and be pointed out as part of the herd, any herd. This is a great forum and I'd like to enjoy it without having to love everybody, or renounce anybody.

Well, jeeze, you should have spoken up, then, when that group was attacking everyone in sight. You didn't. To me, if someone doesn't speak up against the bully, they might as well be the bully. And no, sitting around and cracking jokes about the bullying doesn't count as speaking up against it.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

So this leads me to asking Wendell for prove about Sandy. He posted that anyone could ask for prove and he would give it. He never said if you do this I will post it all over my myspace account. That was not fair. And yes, I got mad at him. I think anyone would. And until today until I read what Dr. Neal's office sent I did not see anything that terribly wrong. Who really cares if she stole a coat, not that I condone coat stealing, but really now. I do not like the email she was circulating about Wendell and I did not see that until today either. I wish he had sent me that when I asked for prove. I think that puts her in a precarious situation and she should not have done that. And that is my honest opinion.

(emphasis my own)

LaraNicole, I think there is a little more to it than that. While I do value and appreciate your honesty and I commend you for writing the post, there is a bit more.

Nobody is upset that Sandy stole a coat. That isn't the issue here. Yes, you acknowledge the "Wendell/PM/Dr. Neal" issue and that is a huge factor in this but Sandy isn't quite an innocent as you make it sound.

She's claimed she does fills w/Dr. Kuri... NOT TRUE

She's claimed she helped write scientific papers with Dr. Kuri... NOT TRUE

She's claimed she is a licensed nurse... NOT TRUE

She's claimed she is a licensed nurse practitioner... NOT TRUE

She's claimed alllll these docs use her band booklet... NOT TRUE

This is an itty bitty teeny list of the things she has lied about time and time again. If it comes from her keyboard I know it has to be a flat out lie.

For goodness sakes, she had to start her own Yahoo e-group just so there would be ONE forum other than OH that she couldn't be banned.

Do you know one time she emailed a friend of mine (this was some time back) thinking that "Michelle" worked for Dr. Aceves (Michelle does not work for Dr. Aceves) not realizing KabukiCoyote *IS* Michelle. She had no clue she was talking about me. She claimed to have lunch with Nina and Michelle about working for Dr. Aceves in Tucson, Arizona. Can you imagine my laughter when that email was forwarded to me? Can you imagine how she felt when she discovered *I* am Michelle? Her nemesis? Nina got a bigger laugh out of it. She had no idea she was in Tucson. She thought she was in Mexico. I'm in Phoenix, not Tucson.

Yes, we all apparently had lunch together, me, Sandy, and Nina. We asked her if she would like to come and work for Dr. Aceves. (Okay, I still giggle a lot when I think of how she must have felt when she discovered who Michelle is... heh.)

If all she did was steal a coat... you'd be right. No big deal. We ALL have something in our history we'd prefer not be posted on the internet. But that is the least of what she has done. So she tried to steal a $1200 coat. It was years ago. She's apparently paid her debt to society. But that really is the least of the horrors she has done. I honestly don't believe she could tell the truth about any given issue if her life depended on it.

She will lie, cheat, deceive, manipulate, and trash anyone that attempts to disagree with her. She does this to gain credibility she simply has not earned. She also does it for financial gain. I'll bet if there was a blue light special she'd run over people in a cross walk if she thought she could sell a bandster CD at K-Mart. The world revolves around Sandy in her mind. Anyone that challenges that is considered "mean".

I have personally seen her give clearly wrong and bad advice to someone just to discredit me. When the patient called her doc at 10PM the doc told the patient the same thing I did so she told the patient the doc was wrong. What right does she have to do that? The key should be to arm the bandster with facts so they can research and talk to their doc and from there it is between the patient and their doctor. What kind of "nurse" would give blatantly wrong information just so she could look better? What kind of person does those things?

While I recognize and appreciate that you are clear about how you feel regarding the Wendell, Sandy, Dr. Neal issue, it is hardly "just" a stolen coat and that is how I perceive your above paragraph.

The rest of your post was heart warming, honest, and how I believe you truly feel. But I did have to take issue with that one section.

Congrats to you and the baby!

[Nancy B 0]

::::

I did not claim you said that, here is what I wrote:

(emphasis added)

I stand corrected.

[Chelle B 0]

You do realize that when addressing the members of a group, you generally referred to the members in the plural, right? I wasn't speaking to just you. I was talking about my general frustration here.

And lastly, if you want support, go to the freakin' support pages. The Rants and Raves forum isn't about supporting your fellow bansters. It's about RANTING and RAVING, for Pete's sake. It's right there in the name. I don't get why it's so hard for some people to understand that. And Chelle, that statement wasn't referencing just you, in case you were wondering. We've had LOTS of people that don't realize that RnR isn't a support forum.

Wow, Lauren, "members" of a group = plural???? I would never have guessed. Thank you for the lesson.

Support has so many other implications than the newbie saying "I need help". Why do you want to lecture me on my manner of speaking when you are doing exactly the same thing? That's what I don't get. I've never had a problem with you at OH - why do you want to create a problem when none exists?

And you know what? I am using this R&R forum appropriately. Just as you are. Get over it.

[LaraNicole 0]

Hi Michelle,

Thank you! I know there is a ton more to the Sandy thing, but one thing I kept seeing on here was the coat thing and I though that was the silliest thing she has been accused of. I am over the Sandy fight, but I know you have a vested interest in it being a nurse. I understand your point of view on this. I just chose to no longer participate in the whole issue.

[LaraNicole 0]

Susan, thank you so much. I hope you are doing well and that the pain your family endured earlier this year is getting better.

[anonemouse 1]

My responses are bold and black.

It doesnt matter what anyone writes because you continue to say the same things over and over again.

1.I have written I do believe Sandy is responsible for her side of things.

2.I have never said nor do I believe Wendell forced Sandy to do anything...I do believe he egged her on ...on purpose, which he told me.

3.Several of you brought up the Protein Shake debate....I posted clearly on that subject. You want to blame the whole OH board for that and say, 'so what that Wendell posted daily on the subject". That wont work as his actions affected the entire board, not just Sandy who he was aiming at. It does matter what he did and as Sandy has responsibility so does Wendell. I don't give a rat's ass if Wendell egged Sandy and you guys on. You and she were adults. "He egged me on" is just a crappy excuse to act like children. If you guys didn't like his posts, guess what? You didn't have to read them. On OH, it very clearly states who started each thread. It isn't that hard to look an inch to the right on the screen and see that, "Oops, I don't like that person, so that's not a thread I want to read." It affected the entire board? Bullshit. The people on OH are not children. They don't need to be told what they can or can't or shouldn't read. Let people be adults, for Christ's sake! And who really cares that he posted about Protein Drinks? Protein drinks WORK for some people. Ask WASa, if you doubt that. The bottom line is that no one forces ANYONE to do anything. You make a choice. Take responsibility for that choice and stop trying to blame it on everyone else.

4. You admit Laurend that you dont care what way you say things on the internet or give a damn about others. So why should I try to reason with you? Or even say what I am feeling? R&R is only a good thing when both parties can converse and expect to at least be heard and treated with some respect (if that respect is only in acknowledging what the other person said). You by your own admission dont feel this responsibility toward others. You are not listening either...you are truly a ranter and raver...which you were on OH, without the section.

Hey, I'm open to reason. I just haven't seen any being presented to me yet. Most of what I've seen is whining about Wendell and evasion. I treat people with respect when I think they are deserving of it and when I have been treated with respect by them. That hasn't happened here or at OH. I reserve judgement on people until I've talked with them and watched them interact with other people. THAT forms my opinion of them. Chelle, for example, has been perfectly nice to my face, for the most part. But her actions on OH are a little shady, IMO. Nancy.... Well, I wasn't impressed with her on OH, and that's all I'll say about that. You, well, I don't know enough about to say one way or the other.

I acknowledge what you guys say. I just think 90% of it is BS. And I'm not going to hide that because it would be the "nice" thing to do.

And what I DID say in my previous statements was that I don't see any reason to pretend to like someone if I don't like them. Doing that? That's just LYING. And I don't lie. I'll be honest with people. If I think someone's lying to me, being dishonest, or trying to make themselves look like victims when they aren't, I'm not going to treat them with respect because their actions have shown blatant disrespect towards ME.

5. You all keep denying the pack mentality...its really a denial that runs deep isnt it? I havent seen anything different in several of yours and others actions that you all are claiming you hate to see on OH.

Hey, we aren't a pack. The major thing that most of us agree on is an intense dislike (you could even say hate) of Sandy. Our dislike of Sandy doesn't mean we agree on anything else.

6. I dont like Wendell, so what? I have my reasons because of direct contact with him. If I were to tell you them you would just defend him like you say I blindly defend Sandy. So we are at an impass are we not? I thought for a moment we were making progress in explaining why we feel the way that we do..and at least agree to disagree. Boy am I naive. Thats not the purpose here is it? Especially by you.

We can agree to disagree. I just don't like people putting words in my mouth and pretending that I've said something I haven't or that I mean something I don't. What gets me is that I have run into people that seem, for the most part, to be evading. Instead of answering straight questions, they try to attack the messenger. Or they seem to try to cozy up to people, when that sudden change of heart is highly suspect.

7. On OH I only saw you respond to the "controversial" threads or say something to complain about others. Thats o.k. if that works for you. But in my mind it also hurts your credibility on any subject.

Hey, now I DO resent that. I posted to PLENTY of support theads, started many of my own, and PMed a LOT of people to give and receive support. Yes, I also made complaint posts. Am I supposed to keep my mouth shut when I see a bunch of grown-ass women attacking a mentally ill person, or mods removing posts willy-nilly (with a very obvious bias, I might add)? I'm sorry, I don't keep my mouth shut when I see something wrong. But I guess that's what you want me to do, right? Pretend that I'm all sweetness and light, ignore people being bullied, etc?

8. Now I know you can dish it out, and because of knowing your history and by your own comments..I dont expect you to be able to take it.

I'll take it, when it's something that's actually true. If it's not true, why do you expect me to take it?

Isnt it amazing that these two individuals and how others feel about them or are perceived to feel about them is causing all these rifts? There are a couple of you that I would like to get to know better, probably not in R&R, (is that only where most of you hang out?..that would be very telling to me). I dont mind a good blunt tour de force converstation, but I also would want to build a friendship. (why else invest time?) I dont believe constantly being on a negative subject and using that as the glue..really is the basis for any friendship, a pack yes, but not a friendship.

Where are you getting this? WASa and I are friends, true, but we were before we knew we both despised Sandy. We still disagree and have arguments about things, too. Wendell and I are friendly. We don't agree on everything, we've just bonded over being attacked on OH. That doesn't mean we are automatically skipping hand in hand through a field of wildflowers. I like to count mrspruett and Susan as friends, but Susan and I met on OH and mrspruett's been a great source of support for me. One mutual agreement does not the basis of a friendship make. We may all agree that Sandy's a giant witch, but that isn't why we're friends.

There are a few that just have posted mockingly and on a 8th grade jeering level on this topic. Well, o.k. then.....

See, I do take offense to that. I'm not jeering at anyone or mocking anyone. I've been quite serious in every comment that I make. When I'm ticked off, I don't make any effort to hide that. Why does that suddenly become "jeering and mocking?" It's not "jeering and mocking," it's called "being damned pissed."

[anonemouse 1]

No body wants you to leave, and I am sure you are a nice person. We are not trying to push. I think that what some of us want here, that we most likely will never get, is for just one person who promoted Sandy, posted a link to her web page, did a shout out to her, gave her kudos for all of her advice, etc. for just one of the many people who did one of those things to have the balls to stand up now and say that she was wrong on that same forum. Geeze the woman spent half of a thread telling me that I chose the wrong doc. She does not know me or my doc (who is absolutely wonderful by the way) but several folks through their support of her dogma gave her some sort of authority to do stuff like that. There are people she sent PM's to telling them they were mentally ill (not the obvious one) and all kinds of inappropriate crap like that. It would be so refreshingly nice for just one of the people who never stood up while we had that crap thrown at us to stand up now. Just one...

EXACTLY. All we've gotten is "yes, she's responsible." And honestly, that makes us think that either people just don't understand HOW BAD the stuff she did was, or they just don't care.

[Chelle B 0]

Well, jeeze, you should have spoken up, then, when that group was attacking everyone in sight. You didn't. To me, if someone doesn't speak up against the bully, they might as well be the bully. And no, sitting around and cracking jokes about the bullying doesn't count as speaking up against it.

Shoulda/coulda/woulda - nonsensical words which have no basis in reality. Because they are all PAST tense.

At one time, it was very difficult to see who the "bullies" really were - you must agree with that. And you have no idea what efforts I may have made privately to resolve issues. I do know, and have all the emails and PM's to validate it. There are many ways to stop the bully - it doesn't have to be a public free for all.

I wish we lived close enough to get to know each other. We could just talk and enjoy a healthy debate. Although it would be a long debate, since there is that whole "who gets the last word" concept.... (and I need to look up those drinks you like -maybe I will try them in your honor. Jack and Coke for years, then mostly margaritas if I do drink. Might be good to try something new occasionally).

Humor is a great part of who I am. I would probably shock you if I told you some of the times that I used humor to deal with horrific situations. But it was all that I had in my arsenal at the time.

All that I've said over the last several days is in no way a defense of my past behaviors - I am no angel and never claimed to be. I am intensely loyal to my friends, with LaraNicole being closer than a sister to me. She is someone I will stand up and defend to the end - she means a lot to me. So yeah I can be sarcastic, blunt, sweet, funny, annoying, boring, whatever. All I can do is to look forward and try to have the next day be a better one. I would go into my ZEN philosophy but that is indeed a new post.

Thanks for listening (or reading, to be more accurate).

[anonemouse 1]

Yes, I did "call out" Lauren on a thread on OH several months ago. This came right after the "Coven" banter was going around. Everyone was questing whether Lauren and Kabuki were the same person or if they were in fact Dee. What I did was ask this publicly of Lauren. Then she was gone.

Lauren - I am sorry for whatever pain I caused you and I wish you had not left OH so that I could have talked to you then. I know you think I am a pyscho bitch, but I hope you won't think of me that way some day. I hold no ill will towards you at all. Once I got to talk to Wasa everything made a lot more sense to me. I am just sorry that you got caught up in any of the mess. At that time there was a lot of paranoia regarding Dee/Vicki.

I hope you all see this in the intention it is being sent. I could have kept quiet and never said a word, but I want you all to know how I feel instead of just speculating about it from time to time. Thank you for the chance to get this all out.

LaraNicole

Thank you for this. It really was appreciated. It goes a long way to relieving the resentment I felt.

I do have one issue with it, though. What you did to me wasn't "calling someone out" or "asking me publically." You attacked me. Like I said in either this thread or the other, I even got PMs from people that were close friends of yours, apologizing for you, because they felt you went way over the line. It hurt and it was extremely humiliating. I had been a member for close to a year. I didn't post every single day, but I wasn't a lurker, either. What shocked me was that you felt like it was your right to treat me like that, like it was your responsibility. So yes, I do really appreciate the apology. I just wish I didn't have to publically post about the whole thing to get it.

[anonemouse 1]

I am glad I have been given the chance to at least understand what the issues are. But if to be accepted here is to say OH sucks, Wendell is a victim, and Sandy is the Devil...thats not going to happen (only can speak for myself). And I will also admit that OH has its problems...who could deny that? But imperfect as it is...I have a loyalty to it. I would like to become more familiar with LBT...that just remains to be seen. I didnt come here expecting to be instant friends with anyone..nor do I want to be...maybe that would come with time.

Look, I'll be upfront with you. Totally, completely honest. You don't have to say that OH sucks. It has a few redeeming factors. Very few, IMO, but I can understand someone liking the place. The fact is, though, Wendell WAS a victim. Was he a perfect angel with spotless behavior? No, and NO ONE here has said he was. But he was a victim. Sandy victimized him the second she wrote the first PM that she sent to a newby, telling them that she supposedly had his medical information. IMO, yes, Sandy is the devil. Or at least a severely disturbed, narcissistic woman. You don't have to admit that she's the devil to admit that her actions were WRONG, illegal, and immoral. That's all we're asking here, for someone to do that. So far, though, all we've gotten is "I talked to her about it" and "yes, she's responsible." It's not enough.

[anonemouse 1]

Wow, Lauren, "members" of a group = plural???? I would never have guessed. Thank you for the lesson.

Support has so many other implications than the newbie saying "I need help". Why do you want to lecture me on my manner of speaking when you are doing exactly the same thing? That's what I don't get. I've never had a problem with you at OH - why do you want to create a problem when none exists?

And you know what? I am using this R&R forum appropriately. Just as you are. Get over it.

I'm seriously sorry if I'm appearing that way to you. But the fact is, I was hurt by your actions on OH. You may not have been overtly "mean" to me, but your actions didn't appear the way you intended them, I think. The posts that you meant to be funny and tension-relieving really felt like sarcastic jabs. And at the time, it felt like insult on top of injury. So yeah, I'm a little wary around you.

[anonemouse 1]

Shoulda/coulda/woulda - nonsensical words which have no basis in reality. Because they are all PAST tense.

At one time, it was very difficult to see who the "bullies" really were - you must agree with that. And you have no idea what efforts I may have made privately to resolve issues. I do know, and have all the emails and PM's to validate it. There are many ways to stop the bully - it doesn't have to be a public free for all.

I wish we lived close enough to get to know each other. We could just talk and enjoy a healthy debate. Although it would be a long debate, since there is that whole "who gets the last word" concept.... (and I need to look up those drinks you like -maybe I will try them in your honor. Jack and Coke for years, then mostly margaritas if I do drink. Might be good to try something new occasionally).

Humor is a great part of who I am. I would probably shock you if I told you some of the times that I used humor to deal with horrific situations. But it was all that I had in my arsenal at the time.

All that I've said over the last several days is in no way a defense of my past behaviors - I am no angel and never claimed to be. I am intensely loyal to my friends, with LaraNicole being closer than a sister to me. She is someone I will stand up and defend to the end - she means a lot to me. So yeah I can be sarcastic, blunt, sweet, funny, annoying, boring, whatever. All I can do is to look forward and try to have the next day be a better one. I would go into my ZEN philosophy but that is indeed a new post.

Thanks for listening (or reading, to be more accurate).

Look, can we just try to bury the hatchet? I really try to be nice to you, sometimes, because like I've said in other posts, you have been nice to me. Some of your posts just come across as being passive aggressive. And honestly, that puts my back up and makes me want to make digs at you. I'd rather someone be completely aggressive towards me than passive-aggressive. It's one of my touchy pet peeves. If I'm misunderstanding your posts, I'm not the only one. I think that's something that's been setting a few of us off. But if I am misunderstanding your posts, I apologize.

[Chelle B 0]

Look, can we just try to bury the hatchet? I really try to be nice to you, sometimes, because like I've said in other posts, you have been nice to me. Some of your posts just come across as being passive aggressive. And honestly, that puts my back up and makes me want to make digs at you. I'd rather someone be completely aggressive towards me than passive-aggressive. It's one of my touchy pet peeves. If I'm misunderstanding your posts, I'm not the only one. I think that's something that's been setting a few of us off. But if I am misunderstanding your posts, I apologize.

I would love to bury the hatchet, and not in someone's head either. Thanks for being honest, and speaking about your feelings directly. 'My' touchy pet peeve is someone speaking on behalf of others to advance their own opinions. It is one reason why I am so adamant about how I approach things. Not right, nor wrong - it just is my way. Same with you. Not right, nor wrong, just you.

We can get past this.

[Chelle B 0]

I'm seriously sorry if I'm appearing that way to you. But the fact is, I was hurt by your actions on OH. You may not have been overtly "mean" to me, but your actions didn't appear the way you intended them, I think. The posts that you meant to be funny and tension-relieving really felt like sarcastic jabs. And at the time, it felt like insult on top of injury. So yeah, I'm a little wary around you.

I do apologize for any unintended hurts I may have caused, because I had no malice toward you ever on OH.

My actions are based on Pareto's Principle. Perhaps that will make more sense.