Sets, rep and volume

[ryan_86 335]

So here's a question I've always had. When I lift, I tend to focus on volume. By this I mean picking a weight and sticking with it for a given number of reps, even if that means breaking sets into smaller pieces.

For example, I may start out doing leg extensions with 100 pounds intending to do 4 sets of 10. First two sets, no problem. Next set, I get to 8 before failure. Next set, 6. Next set 4, and finally 2. I got my 40 reps. It took six sets instead of four.

I don't think I've read about this technique anywhere. They all say, or the ones I've read say, to pick the weight you can complete every rep of every set on.

Personally, I like my method because it takes me to failure more often. I don't do this for every lift, but I do it for maybe half of them, and it depends entirely on the lift. It's not a plan - I up my weight from the last week by 5 or 10 pounds and go at it. If I can do 4 full sets, great. If I can eek out my total reps in smaller sets, great. If it's apparent I'm not ready for the weight increase, I go back to the lighter weight and try again next week to increase poundage. I do my best to keep my form consistent, but I know I'm not perfect on the last rep or two of a set.

Maybe there's a name for this. I think of it kind of like a reverse pyramid, but the reps drop rather than the poundage.

Maybe this is a terrible or counterproductive approach.

I'm curious what experienced lifters think.

[BigViffer 3,545]

Man... I hate to tell you this, but there is so much wrong with your routine it literally caused me to wince. Not because you are stupid or anything, but it reminded me of my earliest days of lifting.

I'm on my phone right now and this post deserves a worthy reply. I will gather the info tomorrow and post again.

On on the off chance I cannot post tomorrow, immediately stop doing the leg extensions! Those damn machines should be banned and the manufacturers sued into oblivion for destroying knees.

Sent from my phone. Please forgive brevity and spelling.

[BigViffer 3,545]

OK, I am just getting some time to get back to this post. The routine you are describing is called a pyramid. I’ll quote the venerable Mark Rippetoe on this:

Quote

There is an old workout, known as "The Pyramid," still floating around weight rooms and gyms all over the world. For the bench press, this workout would go something like 135 x 10, 155 x 8, 175 x 6, 185 x 5, 195 x 4, 205 x 3, 215 x 2, and 225 x 1. By the time you finish the last set, you might feel like you've had a pretty good workout. The problem is that you have done 6390 pounds of work before getting to the last set at 225, so your chances of ever increasing this last single are slim. By the time you reach what should be a work set, you are all used up, since all of your warm-up sets have essentially been work sets, too. The warm-ups didn't prepare you to increase your work sets, so you will never lift any more weight than you did the last time you did this workout, and you are therefore quite thoroughly stuck. If the warm-up sets fatigue you instead of prepare you, they are not warm-ups and your strength cannot increase.

In this case, Coach Rippetoe is describing a traditional pyramid routine. Traditionally starting with a lower weight and higher reps then moving up in weight and down in reps believing you are going to hit a 1 rep max (1RM) lift. As he points out though, this routine does not enable you to make strength gains at the 1RM level. This trains the body for endurance. If this is what you are shooting for, by all means continue.

However, if you are trying to gain strength, you need to focus on higher weights for lower reps. Once again from coach Rippetoe:

Quote

Sets of 5 reps are optimal for learning barbell exercises. It is apparent from electromyography (EMG, a recording of neuromuscular electrical activity) and force plate data (a measure of muscular force generated) that there is a progressive loss of motor coordination as reps increase. In reps 1-5, the muscle is firing in a coordinated manner, with tight, uniform EMG waves and consistent force production. By reps 10-14, there is a loss of motor coordination, with erratic EMG wave and force continuity. By reps 25-29, EMG activity is highly random and force production has deteriorated. Using more than 5 reps per set during the learning phase of a new exercise will usually make correct technique harder to reproduce and master. Note that the peak level of force production is the same on rep 1 and rep 20, although control has begun to degrade; a 20-rep set is not really "heavy," but it sure is long and hard.

There is a picture associated with that last blurb, but it is in my book and I cannot put it in here. He describes it very well though.

Now, to address the leg extension machine. There are so many articles about why it is bad that I just went with the first result on my search: https://www.t-nation.com/training/truth-about-leg-extensions

Here is the summary without a lot of the medical jargon in the article. Don’t get me wrong, it is important that you read that article to fully understand the damage that hellspawn “exercise” machine does to knees.

Quote

Leg Extension Risks:

1. Increased patellofemoral joint reaction force, knee movement, and joint stress in the most commonly used range of motion.
2. Reduced hamstrings activity.
3. Reduced VMO activity and late onset of firing.
4. Non-existent hip adductor and abductor contribution.
5. Increased rectus femoris firing.
6. Constant ACL tension.
7. Higher patellar ligament, quadriceps tendon, and patellofemoral and tibiofemoral forces with the most commonly utilized loading parameters.
8. Increased lateral patellar deviation.
9. Insufficient involvement of surrounding joints to ensure optimal functioning.
10. Poor training economy (no carryover to closed-chain performance from open-chain exercises).

Leg Extension Benefits:

1. Will give you a good pump, but not even close to the benefits you'll get from squatting and single-leg movements.

Uh, wait, there's really only one benefit – and it's pretty weak.

Whether you're a patient or not, the take-home message is the same: if you want more bang for your training buck you should be squatting, not doing leg extensions. Factor in the additional loading that squatting allows, and it should come as no surprise that you'll see better gains in size, strength, and functional capacity.

[ryan_86 335]

OK, I am just getting some time to get back to this post. The routine you are describing is called a pyramid. I’ll quote the venerable Mark Rippetoe on this:

There is an old workout, known as "The Pyramid," still floating around weight rooms and gyms all over the world. For the bench press, this workout would go something like 135 x 10, 155 x 8, 175 x 6, 185 x 5, 195 x 4, 205 x 3, 215 x 2, and 225 x 1. By the time you finish the last set, you might feel like you've had a pretty good workout. The problem is that you have done 6390 pounds of work before getting to the last set at 225, so your chances of ever increasing this last single are slim. By the time you reach what should be a work set, you are all used up, since all of your warm-up sets have essentially been work sets, too. The warm-ups didn't prepare you to increase your work sets, so you will never lift any more weight than you did the last time you did this workout, and you are therefore quite thoroughly stuck. If the warm-up sets fatigue you instead of prepare you, they are not warm-ups and your strength cannot increase.

In this case, Coach Rippetoe is describing a traditional pyramid routine. Traditionally starting with a lower weight and higher reps then moving up in weight and down in reps believing you are going to hit a 1 rep max (1RM) lift. As he points out though, this routine does not enable you to make strength gains at the 1RM level. This trains the body for endurance. If this is what you are shooting for, by all means continue.

However, if you are trying to gain strength, you need to focus on higher weights for lower reps. Once again from coach Rippetoe:

Sets of 5 reps are optimal for learning barbell exercises. It is apparent from electromyography (EMG, a recording of neuromuscular electrical activity) and force plate data (a measure of muscular force generated) that there is a progressive loss of motor coordination as reps increase. In reps 1-5, the muscle is firing in a coordinated manner, with tight, uniform EMG waves and consistent force production. By reps 10-14, there is a loss of motor coordination, with erratic EMG wave and force continuity. By reps 25-29, EMG activity is highly random and force production has deteriorated. Using more than 5 reps per set during the learning phase of a new exercise will usually make correct technique harder to reproduce and master. Note that the peak level of force production is the same on rep 1 and rep 20, although control has begun to degrade; a 20-rep set is not really "heavy," but it sure is long and hard.

There is a picture associated with that last blurb, but it is in my book and I cannot put it in here. He describes it very well though.

Now, to address the leg extension machine. There are so many articles about why it is bad that I just went with the first result on my search: https://www.t-nation.com/training/truth-about-leg-extensions
Here is the summary without a lot of the medical jargon in the article. Don’t get me wrong, it is important that you read that article to fully understand the damage that hellspawn “exercise” machine does to knees.

Leg Extension Risks:

1. Increased patellofemoral joint reaction force, knee movement, and joint stress in the most commonly used range of motion.
2. Reduced hamstrings activity.
3. Reduced VMO activity and late onset of firing.
4. Non-existent hip adductor and abductor contribution.
5. Increased rectus femoris firing.
6. Constant ACL tension.
7. Higher patellar ligament, quadriceps tendon, and patellofemoral and tibiofemoral forces with the most commonly utilized loading parameters.
8. Increased lateral patellar deviation.
9. Insufficient involvement of surrounding joints to ensure optimal functioning.
10. Poor training economy (no carryover to closed-chain performance from open-chain exercises).

Leg Extension Benefits:

1. Will give you a good pump, but not even close to the benefits you'll get from squatting and single-leg movements.

Uh, wait, there's really only one benefit – and it's pretty weak.

Whether you're a patient or not, the take-home message is the same: if you want more bang for your training buck you should be squatting, not doing leg extensions. Factor in the additional loading that squatting allows, and it should come as no surprise that you'll see better gains in size, strength, and functional capacity.

Since I'm keeping the weight consistent, is that truly a pyramid? And I have been upping my weight week to week.

[BigViffer 3,545]

27 minutes ago, ryan_86 said:

Since I'm keeping the weight consistent, is that truly a pyramid? And I have been upping my weight week to week.

It's not a tradional pyramid, no. You have the drecreasing rep but not the increasing weight. So you are still only working on endurance. Again, if that is what you are wanting, it's fine. But you could make more strength gains by lowering your sets and reps and raising your weight.

And more importantly, don't use the leg extension machine. Ever. For any reason. Don't even look at it. If you want to work your legs, start squatting. That's the last I'll preach on it, promise.

[ryan_86 335]

I've been following a trainers program. Didn't discuss his reasoning, but it seems like his intent was to get me lifting and quickly transition me from machines for some compound lifts to free weights. Not doing leg extensions anymore anyway. Just the example I used.

Thanks for the advice.

[BigViffer 3,545]

Not a fan of personal trainers. They are quick to show you the latest fad to get razor abs or muscle gainzzz! Or maybe the newest sport drank even. You are their customer, and an educated lifter is a customer lost. A coach is different as is a physical therapist. Their reputation is on the line for teaching things right. Bad thing about physical therapist is that they want to play it safe in the extreme. Problem with coaches is that they are insensitive to your personal challenges.

lol, kind of a pick your poison situation.

[Newme17 3,444]

2 hours ago, BigViffer said:

Not a fan of personal trainers. They are quick to show you the latest fad to get razor abs or muscle gainzzz! Or maybe the newest sport drank even. You are their customer, and an educated lifter is a customer lost. A coach is different as is a physical therapist. Their reputation is on the line for teaching things right. Bad thing about physical therapist is that they want to play it safe in the extreme. Problem with coaches is that they are insensitive to your personal challenges.

lol, kind of a pick your poison situation.

Lol...poisons? My dad is a physical therapist (40+ years) and is looking to do personal training when he retires in a few months. He wouldn't be a fan of the leg extension either and surely wouldn't do that fad crap nor pyramid thing. Playing safe? Absolutely, he would show you correct form for every exercise with how your body is made to move so you won't be injured. 😊 And if you have personal challenges, see to it that you can do what you want to achieve with what you can/cannot do. I see people doing weights/form incorrectly. So much that I've tapped them on shoulders and showed them how to do it and why. I am my father's daughter. 💪🏽

So, of course I'm biased, but not all are poison. 😊

Thanks for sharing the info above though. Good read!

[ryan_86 335]

I think you need to use a trainer smartly. I'm ok having someone design a workout, walk me through it once, check in a month later, and update the routine as necessary, and he's available if I have a question.

Paying someone to stare at me while I work out and offer up motivational slogans? Don't understand how that helps.

[BigViffer 3,545]

3 hours ago, ryan_86 said:

I think you need to use a trainer smartly. I'm ok having someone design a workout, walk me through it once, check in a month later, and update the routine as necessary, and he's available if I have a question.

The problem with that though is that many times these personal trainers have gone through maybe a week long certification. Not on fitness or anatomy, but on machine use. It's not just the leg extensions that many trainers teach and recommend, but several other exercises that are flat out wrong.

Lat pull downs that go behind the head? Pec station with the stops beyond the plane of the back? Preacher curl machine? All of these are terrible for the shoulder and they are almost universally recommended by trainers in the fast food of gym's. (Planet Fitness, Gold's, etc...)

A sports medicine physical therapist would be the best choice for those just getting into the sport. I should have mentioned them earlier. They are a little different than a normal physical therapist.