Health Care is not as bad as some may think

[BJean 16]

Well TommyO, I think we should let everyone die, smart or dumb.

Whatdaya know... scarcasm just doesn't work for me. There are a couple of posters who use it all the time and I thought I'd give it a try. Just doesn't feel right or make much sense to me.

I have a very difficult time with the whole idea that some Americans hate the idea of paying taxes to help anyone in need. They want all their money to themselves. They want to decide who they'll let die and who they won't. Like any of us really believes they're concerned enough to pay the bill for someone else's health care by choice. Sorry, you just can't leave it up to the wealthy to take care of the poor. They just won't do it. Not that there aren't many wonderful philanthropists in this nation, but there are many more who don't give a damn and who are greedy to the max.

It sounds like a plausible argument: government doesn't do a good job of using tax money so get rid of government programs... but that's a cop out. If the system isn't working properly we CAN fix it. But greedy wealthy people and greedy wealthy corporations are in control of much of the health care and insurance industries in America as well as the government and although it is working well for the wealthy (all getting wealthier by the moment) THAT isn't working for most of the rest of us!

[TommyO 5]

An interesting statistic is that the U.S. governmemt pays more per capita on health care than anywhere esle in the world. But still does not have universal health care, I guess that big business and their lobyists are doing a good job.

So far they have been able to convince many North Americans that health care is bad, guns save lifes, global warming is a myth..........

PS: I say north Americans because many Canadians believe this stuff too it's just that we aren't as big a market so the effort to distort the truth is far less.

[L8BloomR 1]

I don't understand the demonization of people who say they are not wild about the idea of universal health care. What makes one say with such certainty that these people don't want to help anyone; and that in fact they would rather see people die if it means increasing their taxes? My goodness, I don't know anyone like that. If there is a lack of enthusiasm I think it is because only one solution is ever discussed....why does it have to be either/or?

Most Americans (according to recent polls) are more satisfied with their health care than people in other countries, so why dismantle the entire system because it doesn't work for everyone? Why not look into other options....some sort of low-cost or no-cost plan that could be offered to people with low incomes. Hospitals, at least in my state, are not allowed to turn anyone away without insurance; if that is not a country-wide law, then it should be. I remember when Hilliary Clinton tried to implement a universal plan--- there was much discussion about people not being able to chose their own doctor, different pay plans for different levels of care, etc. It was very confusing and a little scary for many people. This is a very complicated issue and I think looking at all the angles before embracing something wholeheartedly does not make someone hard-hearted or evil. Obviously, something needs to be done.... and that will only happen if all people and all solutions are looked at.

[Sunta 5]

What makes one say with such certainty that these people don't want to help anyone; and that in fact they would rather see people die if it means increasing their taxes?

I suggest seeing the movie Sicko. You will witness hospitals letting children die because of lack of proper insurance. You will witness old people in dire pain, practically naked and with no shoes, wandering aimless and confused, dumped onto the street by hospitals. You will witness September 11th rescue workers unable to get seen by a doctor due to lack of insurance.

These stories are real and they are happening to millions of real people. Real people in pain and suffering. Real people who cling to a photo album of their baby because it's all they have left of her after the hospital would not treat her and let her die after hours of the mother pleading for them to treat her.

This country is sick, and vile, and putrid, and greedy. I have never cried so much at a movie in my life.

It's so easy to look at people and say "that's them. I'm protected. Thank goodness I have good health care." It's so easy to just not care when it happens to the other guy. If we truly cared as a society, we would not tolerate this abhorrent mess.

We are complacent, and lazy. We should be out marching in mass protest in the street. We should stand for the people who can't stand for themselves. But make no mistake about it, the majority of our country just doesn't care about people. They care more about the almighty dollar than people's lives, and that's the absolute truth.

[gadgetlady 4]

The wealthy film crew with wealthy Michael Moore stood by and watched a child die? Sick, vile, putrid, and greedy. How many poor families without insurance is Michael Moore sponsoring? That'd be a quick way to solve the problem -- everyone who's complaining ante up for just one other family. Problem solved!

[gadgetlady 4]

I don't understand the demonization of people who say they are not wild about the idea of universal health care. What makes one say with such certainty that these people don't want to help anyone; and that in fact they would rather see people die if it means increasing their taxes? My goodness, I don't know anyone like that. If there is a lack of enthusiasm I think it is because only one solution is ever discussed....why does it have to be either/or?

Don't you know, L8BloomR,that the ONLY solution to EVERY social problem is to create a new government bureaucracy? After all, when the government's involved, everything runs like clockwork, there's no waste, no fraud, all of our problems get solved, and the country lets out a huge sigh of relief. It'll all be sunshine and rainbows if we can just nationalize the problem.

Yeah, BJean, sarcasm works for me.

[Sunta 5]

The wealthy film crew with wealthy Michael Moore stood by and watched a child die? Sick, vile, putrid, and greedy. How many poor families without insurance is Michael Moore sponsoring? That'd be a quick way to solve the problem -- everyone who's complaining ante up for just one other family. Problem solved!

What in the name of God are you talking about?

No, the film crew wasn't there when it happened, nor was Michael Moore. And I think it's really nasty to imply that they were without ever having seen the film.

Michael Moore has a foundation that distributes money to those in need and he also makes many personal financial contributions, some of of which are public and some of which are anonymous.

Personally I am happy to ante up for another family. In fact I have been looking for a way to do so. I can't afford too much but would happily give what I could afford.

I am taking a volunteer job for two hours a day in the morning before I go to my regular job, with an organization that is fighting for universal health care. So yes, some complainers actually do put their money where their mouth is.

I never expect you to ever really and truly research something before you start making totally incorrect statements about it, but in this case you really ought to see the movie before commenting.

[gadgetlady 4]

The wealthy film crew with wealthy Michael Moore stood by and watched a child die? Sick, vile, putrid, and greedy. How many poor families without insurance is Michael Moore sponsoring? That'd be a quick way to solve the problem -- everyone who's complaining ante up for just one other family. Problem solved!

What in the name of God are you talking about?

No, the film crew wasn't there when it happened, nor was Michael Moore. And I think it's really nasty to imply that they were without ever having seen the film.

. . .

I never expect you to ever really and truly research something before you start making totally incorrect statements about it, but in this case you really ought to see the movie before commenting.

You're right, I haven't seen the movie. From your description, it sounded like he had filmed this actually happening. And it sounded like he had filmed the nearly naked people without health insurance wandering around after having been thrown out on the street (btw, if this is indeed the case, lack of health insurance isn't their biggest problem). Again, I have not seen the movie and don't intend to, but I guess my next question would be: how do you KNOW it happened, other than from the mother's claim that it did?

[Lucy 0]

You're right, I haven't seen the movie. From your description, it sounded like he had filmed this actually happening. And it sounded like he had filmed the nearly naked people without health insurance wandering around after having been thrown out on the street (btw, if this is indeed the case, lack of health insurance isn't their biggest problem). Again, I have not seen the movie and don't intend to, but I guess my next question would be: how do you KNOW it happened, other than from the mother's claim that it did?

Maybe you should see the movie before you comment on it. If you don't want to see it, then don't engage in a conversation about it because you won't have much to discuss.

[gadgetlady 4]

It is certainly well within my rights to believe that Michael Moore peddles bunk without needing to see his movies. And I am most definitely not going to give him any of my hard-earned money.

[gadgetlady 4]

I suggest seeing the movie Sicko. You will witness hospitals letting children die because of lack of proper insurance. You will witness old people in dire pain, practically naked and with no shoes, wandering aimless and confused, dumped onto the street by hospitals. You will witness September 11th rescue workers unable to get seen by a doctor due to lack of insurance.

(emphasis added)

Ya' know, upon review I don't think it was so illogical of me to assume the film crew actually FILMED the things you mention. You talk about "witnessing" them over and over. To me the word "witness", in this context, means you see it with your own eyes.

[Sunta 5]

how do you KNOW it happened, other than from the mother's claim that it did?

Because basic common sense dictates that if it did not, the hospital, the insurance company, their brother, and every other right wing Republican in the known universe would be throwing a hissy fit of collosal proportions to prove it didn't.

However, they are all strangly mum on the subject...

[Sunta 5]

And it sounded like he had filmed the nearly naked people without health insurance wandering around after having been thrown out on the street

Well actually he did not film that. A hospital that's set up to help such people did, and he showed their tape in his movie. Would you prefer we all bury our heads in the sand and not watch such "vulgarity"?

Are you saying hospital dumping doesn't happen? Or that we shouldn't see it? Why? So we can continue to feel content as we rest on our insured laurels and sip cognac?

if I'm not mistaken, aren't Christians supposed to care about the poor and downtrodden?

I wonder if Jesus would have turned a blind eye to such pain and suffering...

[BJean 16]

The health care system and pharmacutical situation in this country are not working for a whole lot of people. I have health insurance and hospitalization with coverage for my teeth and eyes, but the cost is ridiculous and the care I get is incredibly inferior to what my parents had and what I had as a child. Doctors used to care about their patients. There are some who do today, but most of them are mostly all about money. Health care in this country is not about keeping people healthy - it's about keeping them sick. It's not about diagnosing and treating causes it is about hiding the symptoms; it's about putting a pharmacutical bandaid on symptoms, and then dispensing more drugs to treat the side effects of the original pharmacutical bandaid. Sometimes we just get sicker. But the doctors and pharmacutical companies benefit and they have powerful lobbies in Washington and we're stuck with whatever treatment and drugs they choose to use on us.

When Hillary tried to head up a STUDY about the dire condition of medical care in this country not long after Bill Clinton got elected, the Republicans used it as a perfect scenario to lambaste socialized medicine. They got their spin doctors all working overtime and the media ate it up. They accused Hillary of trying to do the president's job. They said she had no business running this country because she hadn't been elected. They said that she and Bill were pushing "Socialized Medicine" in this country and that none of us would be able to choose our doctors or hospitals and that we would have our drugs dispensed en masse. We would have to stand in line to get our drugs, stand in line to see some random doctor, and we would have to wait months, perhaps years, to get needed surgeries and that many of us would die waiting.

Everyone went berserk. There was a huge uproar and it was a huge scandal. It was so bad that it threatened to cripple Bill Clinton's ability to govern. So they backed down. All of the plans were tossed to the wayside, all of the experts that were going to participate were released from duty. The Republicans staged and won an enormous coup!

Now we all know that the Clintons were right - our health care system is woefully lacking and it has only gotten worse in the past 14 or so years. Many of us have done our own research and we know that universal health care can work and is actually used and appreciated by the citizens of some of the countries who have it.

The one thing that we know for sure about Republicans is that they have an amazing talent for creating an uproar about something they don't want in this country - like TommyO said - they have us all thinking that guns save lives, universal health care is bad, and global warming is a myth. They also have an amazing talent for getting nincompoops elected. We better watch out... they're likely to do it again in 2008.

As for those of you who buy into Republicans being anti big government, do your research... we have bigger government now than ever before, we are going deeper and deeper into national debt by billions of dollars every week that passes, while this latest nincompoop is in office. But not to worry - the rich are amassing huge, huge assets and there are more BILLIONAIRES now than there were probably millionaires just a few years ago. Let's just hope that they will get so fat and happy, they'll let down their guards and we'll get someone elected who actually gives a damn about us and our country.

The thing I have a hard time understanding is how they get away with calling themselves good Christians, and how they can set up a "Christian Coalition" and have a "Christian Agenda", when what they really have is a personal agenda. How dumb are we to let them get away with it!:faint::faint::faint::faint::faint::faint::faint::faint:

[Carlene 12]

It is certainly well within my rights to believe that Michael Moore peddles bunk without needing to see his movies. And I am most definitely not going to give him any of my hard-earned money.

I agree with you, G Lady. That would be a lot like me buying one of Ann Coulter's books. I'd rather staple my head to the floor!