Somthing needs to be done...

[DerickM 1]

Four arrested in Iraq 'honor killing' - CNN.com

if the act is evil does that mean the faith is evil?

If a person does a evil act then in general we consider the person to be evil, do we not?

I have a problem with the argument that if a person does an evil act but does it because he is mislead or in ignorance of the evil of his act cannot be considered evil.

God gave us free will to choose between the narrow path and the wide path. It is up to us and us alone as a individual to make that choice. In the bigger picture, can there really be a middle ground between evil and good?

[Carlene 12]

I don't condemn the Muslim faith for this outrageous act, for Islam does not teach that people should stone their sisters to death. Instead, I blame the social structure that has, for thousands of years, allowed women to be treated as property.

As for doing something about it, however, I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Just like female genital mutilation in Africa and the old custom of foot-binding in Asia, this is a cultural issue and input from Americans, or other nationalities, will not be appreciated.

[green 6]

Carlene is entirely correct. There has been a number of cultural practices which have grown up around Islam and which have now become conflated with the religion. She mentions the common African practice of female genital mutilation as one example. The practice of honour killing is another example. This is a practice which is not only associated with Islam. Up here in Canada we have seen this occur in new immigrant families who come from the subcontinent of India and who belong to other religions. Though this is a relatively rare occurance the story is always the same. The girl forms a romantic attachment with a boy who is outside the racial, cultural and religious group of the family. The father or older brother kills the girl.

From what I have read these honour killings are very prevalent in village life in such places as India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan.... There was one case recently in India where the girl was gang-raped and, if I remember correctly, although her rapists were actually brought to justice, the girl may have been killed by her family.

There was also the case of a single Nigerian Muslim girl who was pregnant and I believe that the state wanted to put her to death upon the birth of her child. They were invoking Shar'ia which is the Islamic code of justice as an argument for her death. (Nigeria is divided into two areas: one is Christian and the other is Muslim.)

Though I have Muslim friends, all of them gay by the way, my understanding of Islam is limited. There is a great emphasis on the purity of the womenfolk in Islamic cultures. As to whether this is codified in the Qu'ran or whether this is a cultural question, I don't know, but certainly the thrust of the cultural practices is to mistrust women. This is done in a variety of ways. Women must be hidden away. The more fundamentalist the culture the more concealing the garb women must wear when they hit the streets. The ultimate is the burqa which is, as we know, a bluddy tent! In such cultures women are often not permitted to leave their homes unaccompanied by a male, even if that male is a young child. Within the house the women have their own quarters. If the men of the house invite their mates home these boys will never see any of the women for the women live separately in zenana.

The African practice of removing their female children's external genitals, the labia and the clitoris, and of sewing up the entrance to the vagina, ensures that the girl will have no control over her own sex life and that she will never, ever have as much fun as Paris Hilton does.

And as we all know, once the Taliban took control of Afghanistan from the Russians, women were no longer able to work outside of the home, nor were female children able to go to school.

Apologists for Islam claim that the teachings of this religion are far more rational, loving, and open than this behaviour suggests. They say that this stuff is all tied up with peasant cultural misunderstanding and that the religion is both sophisticated and relevant. I don't really know.

I do know that I have met some very fine people who are practising Muslims during my travels. This is a religion which is much closer to Judaism than it is to Christianity. The two religions are desert religions and one of the things about life on the desert is that travel, and indeed life, under those conditions is much more challenging than it is in a temperate climate. Both Islam and Judaism place a powerful emphasis on helping the homeless stranger and on the requirement of actively doing good works. This makes sense; in a tough environment faith isn't enough.

Anyhow, these are my random thoughts.

[JeninCO 0]

It isn't religion, it's male rage and the need to control women.

In India, a woman was sentenced by her village elders to be gang raped because her brother acted inappropriately with a woman from another village.

In Juarez, Mexico, over 400 women have been brutally raped and murdered in the last decade and the police have done nothing about it.

Here in the states, a woman is sexually assaulted every 3 minutes, and rape is still underreported and underprosecuted.

Violence against women must be condemned worldwide or this just continues.

It's all very depressing and terrifying.

[DerickM 1]

Human rights take precedence over cultural rights

[Carlene 12]

Human rights take precedence over cultural rights

Perhaps....but who gets to decide what's "right"? Us....because we're Americans? Because we're smarter....more modern....better educated? Who died and made us the boss?

Consider this....conservative Muslims are as deeply offended by an unveiled woman as you would be by two gay men having sex on the courthouse lawn at high noon. They believe that by stoning a disobedient woman to death, they are promoting decency. And if you ask them, they would probably say we need to stone a few of our women and then maybe there wouldn't be so many of them polishing their crotches on poles in nudie bars across America.

No matter how barbaric we may find the practice of honor killings, we are NOT the world's police force. That's my only point. I'm not trying to defend the practice - just saying that sticking our nose into everyone else's business will, sooner or later, result in a noseless America.

[Jachut 487]

I agree with Carlene.

And with all due respect, as a non American, the thought of America taking over the entire world scares me a lot more than the Islamic faith does.

Stop and think about it from the perspective of other countries in the world. Carlene's right. Who says we all want America to be boss? There's a lot of dissention in Australia because people feel we're only involved in this awful war becuase we cant afford to piss off the almighty Americans. Its a scary culture.

[susannah 2]

Hey, Honor killings are horrific, no doubt about it. In Regards to the war in Iraq, I think the instability will go on for years into decades to be honest. The US administration is kidding itself if they think they can wrap it all up in a nice little bow and skip on out of there anytime soon.

As I have said, the western model of democracy is so alien to everything these people have ever known. Who is to say that the west has all the answers? I believe it is very important to show cultural respect and sensitivity, and to not assume that our culture and the English language should be the dominant culture as a matter of course.

I must say I thought it ridiculous when a boycott was mooted towards the French just because they did not want to be involved in the war in Iraq. :myscared:

Look I love the French and the Americans. My new neice or nephew will be born in NY in December.

Diversity,sensitivity,respect that is all.

Susannah

[green 6]

Perhaps....but who gets to decide what's "right"? Us....because we're Americans? Because we're smarter....more modern....better educated? Who died and made us the boss?

Consider this....conservative Muslims are as deeply offended by an unveiled woman as you would be by two gay men having sex on the courthouse lawn at high noon. They believe that by stoning a disobedient woman to death, they are promoting decency. And if you ask them, they would probably say we need to stone a few of our women and then maybe there wouldn't be so many of them polishing their crotches on poles in nudie bars across America.

No matter how barbaric we may find the practice of honor killings, we are NOT the world's police force. That's my only point. I'm not trying to defend the practice - just saying that sticking our nose into everyone else's business will, sooner or later, result in a noseless America.

This is very true. I live just next door in Canada and while we prefer American pop culture to our own our core values are very, very different. We are both a morally liberal and a socialist country by American standards. And we do sometimes become anxious for we the mouse who is sleeping beside an elephant. When our former government was pondering decriminalizing simple possession of marijuana Washington applied pressure to choke this initiative off before it ever hit the floor of Parliament. Our former government also incurred Bush's wrath by refusing to suit up and go to war in Iraq.

We are also aware that we possess some very attractive natural resources: gas, oil and a huge supply of fresh Water.

If Canadians are sometimes made anxious by America's less than diplomatic ways then it is easy to understand how your country is often viewed in the international arena. This is particularly the case since the current regime has taken over the presidency.

[Melissa S 1]

I don't condemn the Muslim faith for this outrageous act, for Islam does not teach that people should stone their sisters to death. Instead, I blame the social structure that has, for thousands of years, allowed women to be treated as property.

As for doing something about it, however, I doubt that will happen anytime soon. Just like female genital mutilation in Africa and the old custom of foot-binding in Asia, this is a cultural issue and input from Americans, or other nationalities, will not be appreciated.

THANK YOU CARLENE!!

I'm SO sick and tired of everyone thinking that every Muslim has an evil side.. its simply not true. I am a non-practicing Catholic and my fiance is Muslim. Granted my fiance is not a "middle eastern" Muslim.. but a Bosnian Muslim. He has faced discrimination ALL his life..damn near was killed while fleeing Bosnia when he was 11 ... just because of his family's faith. He is the most caring and giving person I have ever met...treats me like a princess...because he wants to. He has accepted my daughter as his own... He even joined the US Army and fought 14 months in Iraq for this country. He owed nothing to the US...but yet he risked his life (and pays the price for that every day due to severe PTSD) for OUR freedom and safety.

People seriously need to wake up and educate themselves... and maybe do a little research before they make judgments...

[Melissa S 1]

BTW.. please do not think that I believe the war or the US being "boss" is acceptable.. I am VERY anti-war and anti-Bush...

[DerickM 1]

So carlene, you condone the practices of the KKK then I assume? or perhaps genocide in Rwanda?

they are after all, "Cultural" issues

[Carlene 12]

So carlene, you condone the practices of the KKK then I assume? or perhaps genocide in Rwanda?

they are after all, "Cultural" issues

Silly Rabbit....the KKK is neither a culture nor a religion. It is just a club for weirdos....kind of like Rotarians gone wild.

Seriously, though...I do not, of course, condone genocide anywhere, at any time, by anyone. I do not condone honor killings, either. But one can deplore those things from afar, without believing that it is up to us (the USA) to stop them. We cannot be all things to all people, nor should we try. If we have learned one thing from the current, ill-advised war in Iraq, that should certainly be it.

The United Nations is where this (honor killings) should be addressed first, I believe. Sanctions should be placed on any country that does not police itself, with regard to civil rights violations. If they are receiving foreign aid, it should stop until the situation has been dealt with. The USA should never aid and abeit a government that will not protect the rights of half its population (meaning women).

The KKK operates within our borders, so that's another matter.

[DerickM 1]

I am not saying the US should police the world. I don't give a flying pig WHO does it, somthing NEEDS to be done about this type of crap no matter where it takes place.

I am speaking as a human being not a US citizen for fucks sake