Intimacy

[BJean 16]

staindgal: Great post. I am pulling for you both. My DH and I both need to lose so we can enjoy better sex more often, like we used to.

I know several people who have had the diabetes diagnosis and then later were able to get off of most of the medicine when they lost quite a bit of weight. That would be such a good thing for your man!

Isn't it amazing how finding out what is really going on with your spouse makes everything so much better?

[TheGh0st 9]

Lepez - I also highly recommend Gadget's offer. Whether or not your a Christian I think the marriage seminar she is offering to give 2 "scholarships" for would be a wonderful experience. I strongly encourage you to give it a try. If by chance you are not a Christian please don't let that stop you. It is a marriage seminar sponsored by a Christian group but its focus is on marriage not on trying to convert anyone.

I also would like to go with my husband as I feel we are headed down a slippery slope right now. And I feel that my weight loss is actually making things worse. But I wanted to leave her offer to other couples that may be in worse need. Not to mention I'm not sure how I would explain to my husband how we had been invited and how it had been paid for. He is a very proud and secretive man and the idea that I may have talked about us to other people would really upset him.

[staindgal 0]

Isn't it amazing how finding out what is really going on with your spouse makes everything so much better?

EXACTLY!!

[TerriDoodle 6]

A dear friend sent this to me and I immediately thought of the LBT Intimacy thread. Hope you find something of value here and that you see the 'fault' does not lie within you:

One Monday, a patient told me about the sermon his priest had given the

previous day. He asked his parishioners to imagine God paying a visit to

the United States and consider where He would stay, what He would want to do and who He might want to visit. That interested me, and I began to

imagine: where? - Helmsley Palace or Ramada Inn? what to do - Walt Disney

World or the Grand Canyon? who to visit - Michael Jordan or Billy Graham?

Then I wondered: would He call room service? carry his own luggage? be

escorted by a band of angels? Which house of worship would He visit first?

Later that day, I thought about it in a more serious, but different context.

If God came to visit and chose to stay with you, would you welcome Him, or

would you turn Him away? If you did invite Him in, how would you act?

Would you walk on eggshells? Set rules for what time meals were served? Or

would you behave with "company manners"? We’ve all heard that expression, but have you ever thought about what it means? Does it mean to refrain from saying what you really feel; or to behave in accordance with what is truly in your soul - to act freely and be vulnerable? That would probably depend on how you view God. Every individual seems to have a different concept of who and what God is. Each denomination has its own interpretation. But there is one characteristic that most faiths attribute to God: love. I have heard it said that "God is love".

But, therein lies the problem. Many people find it difficult to let true

love into their lives. They associate love with weakness, dependence and the relinquishment of power, and fear giving anyone that much control over them. Instead, they hide their emotions and mitigate expressions of love. Some people have difficulty accepting love. Unconsciously, they reject love by staying busy, being angry, worrying and closing their partner out. Some even pick fights before any potentially happy occasion. Many patients have described driving home, listening to romantic music and experiencing warm

feelings toward their spouse, only to walk into their homes and become angry because dinner wasn’t ready or the house was a mess. Others have described what I call "sleep talk". While leaning over their sleeping child or spouse to kiss them goodnight, they feel emotions deeper than they ever realized they were capable of. However, in the light of day, the feelings are absent. These examples are unconscious attempts to establish distance from partners and find emotional safety in the estrangement they create. Unfortunately, their loved ones only see their actions, or lack of them. Their feelings are invisible to the eye. These patients pay a long-term price for their emotional security. They live life in loneliness and despair. Despite intellectual awareness to the contrary, they refuse to let anyone approach the emotional child within them, for fear that they will be hurt as they were in their youth.

This picture is clear, when we see it in others. But, when we attempt to

view our own behaviors, we often get caught up in the "facts", which we use to depreciate our partners. We think to ourselves "To hell with love. I

want to hurt someone before they hurt me." Later, we berate ourselves for

our deeds, but often it’s too late. We forget the times when our partner

says "I love you". We disbelieve the words, question the motivations and

deny our desire to respond to them.

There is a solution. That is to see ourselves introspectively and allocate

the time and effort to fight the survival instincts that cause us to protect ourselves, rather than risk being vulnerable. Only in that state can we say that we have invited God into our lives. Then, in His presence, we can ask "Is this the way I wish to act?" The answer will be obvious. Because, when we allow God to live within us, it is easier to act in the name of love and to demonstrate true "company manners".

[lepez 0]

Dear Gadget Lady,

You sound like a truly wonderful person. I would love to go on a weekend retreat BUT my husband thinks it sounds ridiculous. He was raised Catholic but decided when he was about 17 that organized religion is a not for him. He thinks that anything organized in a Christian church is set up to sort of brain wash people into becoming super religious. I was raised Catholic and went to catholic school but stopped going to church a long time ago. We didn't get married in the church which I have always felt bad about. I did have my son baptized but my husband has said he will not go to church. To tell you the truth I think he would make fun of a weekend retreat even if it has no religious affliliation. He hates organized everything. He won't see another therapist because he thinks the whole therapist thing is "full of shit". I am at my wits end and I can't think of anything else to do that could possibly help us. I really appreciate your kindness and I hope that whatever couple is lucky enough to go to that weekend really appreciates your heart.

[lepez 0]

Thank you All for trying to help. I wish i could talk my husband into the weekend but there is no way he will go. I am so grateful to all of you for caring about my marriage and my child. I really hope we can work it out but we have been together for 13 years and married for 7 of those years and I just don't think we can change at this point. I hate feeling hopeless but I really can't see a clear solution. Thank you though for your kindness and compassion.

[gadgetlady 4]

Dear Gadget Lady,

You sound like a truly wonderful person. I would love to go on a weekend retreat BUT my husband thinks it sounds ridiculous. He was raised Catholic but decided when he was about 17 that organized religion is a not for him. He thinks that anything organized in a Christian church is set up to sort of brain wash people into becoming super religious. I was raised Catholic and went to catholic school but stopped going to church a long time ago. We didn't get married in the church which I have always felt bad about. I did have my son baptized but my husband has said he will not go to church. To tell you the truth I think he would make fun of a weekend retreat even if it has no religious affliliation. He hates organized everything. He won't see another therapist because he thinks the whole therapist thing is "full of shit". I am at my wits end and I can't think of anything else to do that could possibly help us. I really appreciate your kindness and I hope that whatever couple is lucky enough to go to that weekend really appreciates your heart.

Thank you lepez; I am really just an incredibly blessed person who wants to share a little bit God gave me a heart for people so I do what He tells me to do.

I have a little story for you. My uncle recently went for a massage, but he's not the type you would normally think would be the "spa" type. I asked my aunt how she got him in there for the massage. She said, "It was simple. I scheduled an appointment for him on the same day I was going in for one, and I told him he'd need to be available to drive me there and wait for me. Then on the morning of the appointment, I told him he had an appointment for a massage. He didn't want to do it, but when I told him the appointment was non-cancellable and he'd have to pay for the massage whether he got it or not, he decided to do it."

Now I'm not suggesting you lie to your husband, but knowing that most people hate to waste money, what would happen if you surprised him with it? Presented it as a done deal -- "someone gave me this weekend getaway and I already made the reservations." Or perhaps you just tell him to save the weekend because you have something special planned?

The other option is to explain to him that you're at your wit's end and if he doesn't do something, everything's going to hit the fan. I'm not saying the marriage weekend is the "something" that needs to be done, but whatever you need to do for your sanity may be it.

Blessings to you. You and your husband are in my prayers.

[green 6]

Thank you All for trying to help. I wish i could talk my husband into the weekend but there is no way he will go. I am so grateful to all of you for caring about my marriage and my child. I really hope we can work it out but we have been together for 13 years and married for 7 of those years and I just don't think we can change at this point. I hate feeling hopeless but I really can't see a clear solution. Thank you though for your kindness and compassion.

lepez, I am sad to hear that your husband is closed to going to this weekend experience with you. I believe that the pair of you could profit from this experience. At the same time I must confess that I do know where your husband is coming from. I myself am an atheist and I tend to be suspicious of all programmes which have a religious foundation. In this particular case, your husband's refusal is a loss to both you and to him. Though it is difficult for people like myself and your husband to look beyond the specifically religious material, material which can be alienating for folks like us, there is much that is of value that one can learn from these workshops. The trick is that people like us are going to have to enter into these experiences with a degree of curiosity along with our natural cynicism.

It seems that you ain't about to lead your horse to the Water and that is kinda too bad.

I am inclined to wonder whether your husband is suffering from a major and undiagnosed depression. I am also wondering about how successfully the pair of you have been talking about your marital crash. Does he know how you really feel? Does he know that you are prepared to quit the relationship? Have you been able to explain to him that you really are not feeling well in this environment? Of course the clever trick is to be able to talk about all these feelings in such a loving and concerned fashion that neither one of you is put on the defensive, that both of you feel free to paw over these problems and hunt for solutions without either one of you feeling like you are being dissed, being put on the spot, or whatever.... It is obvious that you as the initiator of these discussions must not allow any accusatory comments to enter into your talks. A good approach is to describe how you are feeling and to mention that you have been thinking that a split might be a possible solution for your marital difficulties. You might then say that you are confused and want to know what his take on your relationship is. It is important that when he talks that you listen to him and that you do not lose your temper.

The two of you are, you see, negotiating with each other. You will be telling him that you are unhappy and you will be explaining to him why you are unhappy and you will be proposing to him an option by which you can deal with this - a marital split. He is then able to present his side of the story and suggest his alternatives to your option, if he has any. At this point you will learn about the nature of his unhappiness and you will also learn if he wants to work on maintaining the marriage. If this is a no go then the 2 of you must figure out how to best look after the needs of your child. I am inclined to believe that couples who are falling apart gently will be much more likely to do the right thing by their children.

I dunno if my advice is okay or not but whatever..........

[IMFine 0]

I just needed to chime in really quickly. I'm at MY wits end! I love my husband. We've been together for 6.5 years and married for 3. He's 53, I'm 43. We have sex about 2x a year, IF I ask, beg, plead, cry for it. His "hobby" is downloading porn from the internet. I think it's an addiction. He doesn't hide it from me--I guess that's good; I don't know. I've talked with him about it and he assures me that it has nothing to do with me, it's just something to do. He's a huge computer nerd and just likes being able to hack into the sites without paying. My problem is that I do see it as competition. If he wasn't looking at all of those young, slim, un-flabby bodies, wouldn't he be satisfied with what he's got? I know when I'm away from home and he's home alone, he--um--satisfies himself. I don't think that's at all unusual, but I could accept it more if I wasn't ready, willing, or able to give him sexual intimacy, release, satisfaction--whatever. Regardless, I know he doesn't have a PHYSICAL problem, or he wouldn't be able to do what he does when I'm not home. We used to have sex a couple of times a week. I would take it several times a day, if I could get some compliance. I weighed 270 when we met, I've been down as low as 210 during our relationship. There doesn't seem to be anything I can do to spark his interest. I never doubt his love for me. He's very supportive, we talk about anything and everything, I know he's 100% faithful to me. Why can't I just be happy about that?

I know I've rambled on. Does any of it make sense? Does anyone have any ideas?

[gadgetlady 4]

I just needed to chime in really quickly. I'm at MY wits end! I love my husband. We've been together for 6.5 years and married for 3. He's 53, I'm 43. We have sex about 2x a year, IF I ask, beg, plead, cry for it. His "hobby" is downloading porn from the internet. I think it's an addiction. He doesn't hide it from me--I guess that's good; I don't know. I've talked with him about it and he assures me that it has nothing to do with me, it's just something to do. He's a huge computer nerd and just likes being able to hack into the sites without paying. My problem is that I do see it as competition. If he wasn't looking at all of those young, slim, un-flabby bodies, wouldn't he be satisfied with what he's got? I know when I'm away from home and he's home alone, he--um--satisfies himself. I don't think that's at all unusual, but I could accept it more if I wasn't ready, willing, or able to give him sexual intimacy, release, satisfaction--whatever. Regardless, I know he doesn't have a PHYSICAL problem, or he wouldn't be able to do what he does when I'm not home. We used to have sex a couple of times a week. I would take it several times a day, if I could get some compliance. I weighed 270 when we met, I've been down as low as 210 during our relationship. There doesn't seem to be anything I can do to spark his interest. I never doubt his love for me. He's very supportive, we talk about anything and everything, I know he's 100% faithful to me. Why can't I just be happy about that?

I know I've rambled on. Does any of it make sense? Does anyone have any ideas?

I don't know if I have any ideas, but I can tell you that for a lot of people, porn destroys their sex lives. The problem with porn is not only that it sets up unrealistic images for men, but also that the longer porn is associated with sexual feelings, the more porn is REQUIRED to HAVE those feelings. Just like all of those things they told us in our early weight loss days, like don't go to the refrigerator when you're bored because then you'll associate boredom with eating, the same is true of sex. It IS good that he doesn't hide it from you because that means at least you have an honest relationship, but it isn't good of course for your psyche and feelings about yourself, and of course it isn't good for him either to have that addiction.

The problem is that if he doesn't see anything wrong with it, it's unlikely to change. It appears you communicate well; have you explained to him that you feel he's substituting other women (albeit glossy magazine or internet ones) for you and that you feel like you're not good enough? Perhaps he doesn't understand that. I would suggest making sure he knows just how much he's hurting you with his actions, and his sneaky behavior of getting the porn for free is no big win for your marriage.

[BJean 16]

IMFine: It seems like you hear people on TV and the radio talking about porn all the time these days. Everyone seems to be discussing it. It used to be so in the closet. There weren't tons of stores that sell it and of course it wasn't on the internet. There weren't channels on TV that offered it either. Now it just seems to be everywhere and although people are often laughing about it, it seems to have become much more acceptable across the board in our society.

That's a tough thing to combat. I have absolutely no hesitation in saying that I believe it is harming your chances for sex and intimacy with your husband. If for no other reason than he spends so much time sequestered away from you involved with the computer. Plus, self-gratification is, for some men, so much easier than doing all the work it takes to have a real sexual encounter with their partner, and it's just as pleasurable. That isn't true for women. We need the intimacy. Guys just need the physical release.

I don't have any ideas of how you change something that I am sure he feels is harmless and not threatening to his marriage. I guess the only way you're going to be able to get through to him is when he is completely away from the computer environment and focused on communicating with you. If he doesn't listen and make some changes, then you have to decide if it is important enough for you to become proactive by seeing a therapist and getting some help for yourself!

[lepez 0]

Thank you lepez; I am really just an incredibly blessed person who wants to share a little bit God gave me a heart for people so I do what He tells me to do.

I have a little story for you. My uncle recently went for a massage, but he's not the type you would normally think would be the "spa" type. I asked my aunt how she got him in there for the massage. She said, "It was simple. I scheduled an appointment for him on the same day I was going in for one, and I told him he'd need to be available to drive me there and wait for me. Then on the morning of the appointment, I told him he had an appointment for a massage. He didn't want to do it, but when I told him the appointment was non-cancellable and he'd have to pay for the massage whether he got it or not, he decided to do it."

Now I'm not suggesting you lie to your husband, but knowing that most people hate to waste money, what would happen if you surprised him with it? Presented it as a done deal -- "someone gave me this weekend getaway and I already made the reservations." Or perhaps you just tell him to save the weekend because you have something special planned?

The other option is to explain to him that you're at your wit's end and if he doesn't do something, everything's going to hit the fan. I'm not saying the marriage weekend is the "something" that needs to be done, but whatever you need to do for your sanity may be it.

Blessings to you. You and your husband are in my prayers.

Dear Gadgetlady and Green,

I wish my husband would just give it a shot but he already said he won't. He would not care if I already paid for it because he would view it as money lost but his sense of self saved. I know that he understands that I am at my wits end because we had a big blowup about this already last week. Green, I will try to use your advise about not losing my temper in the conversation. I have to admit that I always start out in a conversation and by the end we are both defensive and angry and one of us just walks away. I will make a real effort this weekend and who knows, maybe he will respond better. Thanks for your help.

[lepez 0]

I just needed to chime in really quickly. I'm at MY wits end! I love my husband. We've been together for 6.5 years and married for 3. He's 53, I'm 43. We have sex about 2x a year, IF I ask, beg, plead, cry for it. His "hobby" is downloading porn from the internet. I think it's an addiction. He doesn't hide it from me--I guess that's good; I don't know. I've talked with him about it and he assures me that it has nothing to do with me, it's just something to do. He's a huge computer nerd and just likes being able to hack into the sites without paying. My problem is that I do see it as competition. If he wasn't looking at all of those young, slim, un-flabby bodies, wouldn't he be satisfied with what he's got? I know when I'm away from home and he's home alone, he--um--satisfies himself. I don't think that's at all unusual, but I could accept it more if I wasn't ready, willing, or able to give him sexual intimacy, release, satisfaction--whatever. Regardless, I know he doesn't have a PHYSICAL problem, or he wouldn't be able to do what he does when I'm not home. We used to have sex a couple of times a week. I would take it several times a day, if I could get some compliance. I weighed 270 when we met, I've been down as low as 210 during our relationship. There doesn't seem to be anything I can do to spark his interest. I never doubt his love for me. He's very supportive, we talk about anything and everything, I know he's 100% faithful to me. Why can't I just be happy about that?

I know I've rambled on. Does any of it make sense? Does anyone have any ideas?

Dear IMFINE,

Well, the Porn thing is what killed my marriage and sex life. I tried to put restrictions on it but then he would just sneak around. I tried to say that I don't mind the porn as long as he was being intimate with me as much as he was looking at the porn, but that never worked either. I even left the marriage for a few weeks ( before I had my son) over the issue but that did not work either. I think that porn is accepted these days as a hobby . I hate it . Finally, 1 1/2 years ago I told my husband to look at as much porn as he wanted and I did not care as long as he was intimate with me. We haven't had sex in 2 years so I guess that plan did not work. If you have a great relationship with your husband than just accept it for what it is. I hate to sound like a "debbie downer" but if a guy is happy satisfying himself all the time then we need to accept it, find a lover, or be forced to move on because I think it makes a woman look desperate to have to beg for sex. I wish I could give you a great suggestion to try but nothing has worked for me so I would be a hypocrite if I tried. I hope things turn around for you.

[gadgetlady 4]

I literally have tears in my eyes as I read what you ladies are going through. Do your husbands understand how this is destroying you? Have you told them that they are choosing fantasies over you, and that those photos aren't even REAL? They are retouched, airbrushed, and totally unnatural?

Sex doesn't determine the course of a relationship, but it is a barometer to what's going on. If your husband doesn't concern himself with your physical pleasure, if it's not important to him, if the only thing he desires is physical release through porn/masturbation, if he doesn't respect your needs, if you cry out to him for companionship and he ignores you, then he needs a wake-up call big time. While I don't believe marriage is around just to make people happy, I also believe that it shouldn't be destructive of one's psyche.

[rroswelltx 1]

Lepez I understand what you are going through with husband not going to this sort of thing. My hubby is actually a very rooted christian man though and he just won't shake off his prideful self sometimes to consider that a retreat or counselor can help. It it makes me so mad. I also have problems picking the right time to start a conversation or to start it right without putting him on the defense immediately. It does take a lot of hard work to do so, and it can mean really humbling yourself before starting the conversation so you don't come off as angry and immediately get his feathers ruffled. These conversations in the heat of the moment never accomplish anything. I wish you luck, I know you are heartbroken and that is no way to live.

IMfine I am so sorry you are going through this. Porn is a very dark road when people travel down it, it sucks them in and they have tunnel vision and feel they are doing nothing wrong. But as we as the people looking in and in your case getting hurt we see the dark side. He needs help, and if he is anything like my hubby your probably not the one to give it too him. What I mean by that is our spouses seem to take anything we say to them as critism not in the loving way we intend it. Someone can say to my DH the same thing I have said over and over and it will get him to realize what he is doing. I do not know your situation but is there family or a good friend of his that is not on this dark path that can possibly intervene? My heart goes out to everyone on this thread, I have been through a lot of what you all have and I feel your pain deeply.