Intimacy

[mvr 0]

Hey green have you ever tried a vibrator?? I would die without it as I have have trouble coming because of antidepressants. Thanks to you all for your wisdom and honesty. I have many of the same lack of sex with dh issues and am feeling SO fat and ugly today. I keep bringing it up and he keeps avoiding it. It used to be so fun. I don't want to realize one day that I am seventy and havn't had sex for 20 years.

[nume130 0]

I am fast coming to the realization that my H isn't really all that keen on fighting for our marriage. I work 2 hours away from home and live in the city where I work during the week. I tried doing the drive but after several months, I came to the realization that I couldn't keep it up especially last fall with winter approaching. I am not allowed to work from home very often. I go home on the weekends. I asked my H why he never came down to spend time with me and he said he didn't want to pay the gas. This week he was offered a job in the same city where I work and he turned it down, because he felt that the pay was too low, he didn't negoitiate a higher salary. I think that about sums it up, don't you?

MVR, I agree, who wants to wake up in the next 20 years and realize how long it had been since you've been held and loved. What are your plans?

[BJean 16]

nume130: Yes, that definitely sums it up very nicely. My first husband did a similar thing to me when we were just married and in college. I was working, on my feet, from 8 AM until at least 8 PM, Tues. thru Sat.. I was the sole breadwinner. I was only able to take a couple of classes that met on Mondays. I didn't get to go to any football games or participate in the usual college fun stuff. He did. He was in the school of architecture. They stayed up all night lots of nights working on projects. Many other nights he "had" to study with a group. He was offered a job with the city, because he won a competition. He would have the opportunity to design things like parks and playgrounds. He turned it down because "he didn't have enough time." Although they said he could work whatever hours he chose, whenever it was convenient.

The last straw for me happened the last semester we were together at that school. The government put the word out that male students had to be enrolled in a minimum of 15 hours per semester in order to qualify for a deferment, which would keep him from being drafted and away from Viet Nam. Yeah, you guessed it, he enrolled in 14. I was taking a one hour interior design class on Monday nights that he could have picked up - it was a no brainer. He refused. Just after that semester ended, in June, he got his "Greetings" as we used to call the letter commanding you to report for your physical for the draft - which meant that you were going!

It took me a long time to sort out all the things like that, that he did to damage me and our marriage during the four years we were married. He had an uncanny ability (who knows where he got it) to turn everything around and make any bad occurrence, all my fault. My family and friends knew the score, but his family and our joint friends, and our church kept telling me that I had to make it work. You can imagine the guilt when I finally had enough and got a divorce. Throughout the whole thing I was the bad guy. We had a beautiful little boy - not even one year old - and I hadn't finished college and had no really good means to support us. I had sustained an eye problem and could no longer work 12 hour days on my feet.

Let me tell you for sure and for certain, the divorce was the best decision I have ever made in my life - bar none! My only regret is that I didn't get the divorce 6 months after we got married. Four years doesn't seem like a long time to you and in comparison to your investment in your life, your children and your marriage, it is small. But my life would have been so much different if I hadn't tried so hard to be the perfect, supporting wife and mother. If I had just once looked at the big picture and realized that it was MY life too and that I needed to take care of myself. By the time we got divorced, he had manipulated me so much, for so long, that I felt like I had 2 kids, not one. I totally supported us during our whole marriage, except for the measly pay that the Army provided while he was training and in Viet Nam. He paid child support occasionally - $85 per month! Such a small amount because he told the court that was all he could afford. It didn't even cover day care, which didn't matter anyway, since he didn't pay it very often (only when I called him and demanded it.)

My advice is: cut your losses. Get on with your life. Stop blaming yourself!

[monk 0]

Hey guys, Not gone but just soaking in all the blogs. I think that the old advise, make a list of the plus/minus of your marriage and compare makes sense. If the minus is larger than the plus than you need to rethink your situation. I have had some terrible times in my marriage and if anyone told me when the kids were younger that I would still love this guy in 10 years I would have told you that you were crazy. I always thought that once the feelings were gone they were GONE. I don't want you to think this means staying in a terrible realtionship, DON'T!. If you are unsure, make the list and see what is best for you. Being single in this day and age is scary. I worked with a "large" friend who joined different clubs and groups for larger singles and had some good results. But this IS the lap blog, what happenswhen you lose it???If your husband is that unfeeling, you will find peace just being single. Really.I really think your self worth and inner peace is what life is all about.I've been with my DH (thanks BJean) for 28 years and I am happy I didn't leave. BUT...who knows where I'd be if I did? Maybe GREAT or NOT????

[green 6]

I was very moved by your account of your marriage, BJean. It reminds me of my own early attempt. Young people do marry but they are unable to base their choice of partners on anything more than youthful idealism, active hormones, and possible fears of missing out on an important rite of passage into adulthood. Those active hormones are what we call love when we are young and it is the idealism and the desire to participate in adult life which prompts us to marry. Sometimes all of this works and the junior couple continue on to have a successful marriage which lasts for decades. And sometimes these early unions turn out to be absolutely disasterous.

We are all so young and so immature when we are in our late teens and early 20s. And yet we are all hauling around so much personal baggage in terms of our oh so recent childhood experiences, both with respect to our expectations and our emotional damage. And of course we haven't lived long enough to have developed any kind of experience or perspective.

I believe that women are particularly vulnerable to colluding in their own victimisation in order to save a relationship which has gone sour. I know that in my own early marriage I was quite content to be the sole bread winner as well as the only individual of the pair who would do housework when my husband quit teaching in order to make his (non)living as a musician. I was a real "stand by your man" kinda grrl at the time. I sure wasn't happy in my marriage but it was only when I discovered that the guy was unfaithful that I was able to dump him. That was the straw that broke this particular grrl's back. Up until this point I had felt that all the failures and all the unhappiness in our marriage had been my fault - I simply hadn't been giving enough or hadn't been giving in the right way.

When I discovered that my husband had been systematically unfaithful to me, the final insult, I was so horrified and grief-stricken that I kinda freaked out. I kicked him out of the house but I was so troubled by my feelings of shock and pain that I wondered if I might not be on a trip to the rubber room. I had, you see, worked so damn hard at being a good and supportive wife, a role which does not come easily to the naturally mouthy, cynical, and outspoken Green, eh.

I asked my doc to refer me to a shrink (all of this was covered by our health care plan, by the way) and he was curious to know as to why I had washed up in his office. I told him about my situation and then I said that I thought that I was nuts. He said that I wasn't nuts, that I was just going through a split-up. :rolleyes

It wasn't long after this before I began to feel much happier. And this is where I must address Monk's comments: I do believe that it is far easier to be happy and at peace when living alone than when opting to settle with someone. I did, you see, find myself spending one dreadful Saturday afternoon not long after the collapse of my first marriage lying on my living room floor staring up at the ceiling and thinking to myself that I will surely die from this pain of loneliness. I was so miserable that I couldn't move. I lay there for some considerable period of time and then I began to remember all the loneliness that I felt during my marriage and I realised that you can feel just as lonely in a marriage.

I really don't think that there is anything at all scary about being a single individual. I am convinced that in many respects living single can make for a more interesting life. I loved living life as a single person and I am always happy when my beloved mate has to spend time away from home.

[green 6]

Hey green have you ever tried a vibrator?? I would die without it as I have have trouble coming because of antidepressants. Thanks to you all for your wisdom and honesty. I have many of the same lack of sex with dh issues and am feeling SO fat and ugly today. I keep bringing it up and he keeps avoiding it. It used to be so fun. I don't want to realize one day that I am seventy and havn't had sex for 20 years.

Heh heh. I have been kinda thinking about it. I have been thinking about getting the rabbit which is a vibrator which I saw on SEX and.... You can buy them in my city and they do an all out attack on the genitals, eh.:)

[BJean 16]

Green your description of young girls deciding to marry well before they are ready is absolutely SPOT ON~! I really appreciate knowing that you went through many of the same emotions and tribulations that I did.

I didn't have a epiphany while lying on the floor staring at the ceiling - mine was in the shower when I found myself seriously studying my wrists with a razor blade in my hand. Thank goodness we both were smart enough to get on with our lives and learned to stop taking the blame for something we couldn't change. Right on, sister! :clap2:

[BJean 16]

Monk: You're absolutely right about things changing sometimes for the better in a marriage. If a couple can work through the rough times and figure out ways to communicate and compromise, things can become better than ever.

I have a feeling that in nume's case, there is an element that she's up against that she can never expect to get better. If I am right, it will always be a wedge between them and most probably will only get worse. It would be great if I were wrong.

[lepez 0]

I am fast coming to the realization that my H isn't really all that keen on fighting for our marriage. I work 2 hours away from home and live in the city where I work during the week. I tried doing the drive but after several months, I came to the realization that I couldn't keep it up especially last fall with winter approaching. I am not allowed to work from home very often. I go home on the weekends. I asked my H why he never came down to spend time with me and he said he didn't want to pay the gas. This week he was offered a job in the same city where I work and he turned it down, because he felt that the pay was too low, he didn't negoitiate a higher salary. I think that about sums it up, don't you?

MVR, I agree, who wants to wake up in the next 20 years and realize how long it had been since you've been held and loved. What are your plans?

Dear Nume 130,

I am so sorry that you are no longer able to deny the magnitude of your pain. I know that you probably wish that you could go on for many more years avoiding the thought of divorce and the thought of being single again. I am in a similar situation. I know that my husband would never divorce me but is willing to remain in a marriage where we are little more than room mates. I wish I could remain in denial but I can't . Each day that passes is one more day that we remain in a relationship that is chipping away at our self esteem, self respect, and happiness. I have a beautiful son who is almost four and I can't bear the thought of one day without him so I remain in a loveless and sexless marriage. I don't know how long I can hang on but the more and more I read this thread the more and more I can no longer deny how very distructive the marriage is to my person and to my soul. I wish you ( and myself) could know for sure if leaving would put us in a better situation or if staying married is what is best for us and the children involved.

[BJean 16]

lepez: I have probably been one of the, if not the, most vocal proponent of nume considering deconstructing her marriage. However her circumstances, in some ways, must be very different from yours. I don't know if I would be saying the same thing to you if I knew what you were up against. I'm not a psychologist, I'm only an older, very experienced woman who would like to keep anyone I can from making similar mistakes from the ones I made. Sharing our experiences here is very helpful and I wish it had been available when I was going through the devastating pain of feeling unloved, unappreciated and unsatisfied.

I have to tell you lepez, when I had been married to my current DH for about 3 years, we had very heated arguments over the fact that he was so controlling and needing to be the man in power over his family. I sure didn't want to have a second failed marriage athough I felt as if I had no identity of my own. If I thought I needed something, other than groceries, I had to fill out a sheet of paper with the reasons why I needed it. Then he would consider allowing me to spend the $15 or $25 I was asking for. A bunch of flowers? Forget it. A scented candle? Forget it.

I spoke with my Ob/Gyn and she recommended a great woman psychologist who I explained to my DH that I had to see or that I would leave him. He relented although he made fun of her and me at every opportunity. Turned out that she clearly saw my side and reinforced that he was unreasonably controlling. She saw me alone a few times and then she saw us together. She presented us with books on "Understanding the Male Myth" and others. She explained to DH that he was not sharing any intimacy with me and that I would eventually leave him if he did not give up his domineering ways and make me a more valuable partner in the marriage. My DH is a brilliant, fair, and big hearted guy and he realized that he didn't like the way we were living either. He realized that he was just functioning on "automatic" behaving as his role model father had. He changed, I changed some and now I trust him with every part of me.

Our marriage became something way beyond the normal marriage. We did have 2 years of concentrated effort, but it was something that we both decided that we wanted to do and that we were worth it. From then on we have happily traveled down the same path through life together and we are each others best friend. I never dreamed that being married could be so great.

Yes, we did hit some rocky slopes occasionally over the years, but we trusted each other with our feelings and we worked them out very quickly. Usually they had to do with things happening at his or my work that had us more stressed than we should have been. When you have someone on your team, all of the daily garbage that you have to deal with just doesn't seem so overwhelming.

At the time I went to the psychologist, I felt just as you expressed in your post that you are feeling now. I had no hope that we could have such a good outcome. In fact I was seeing the psychologist primarily to prove to myself that I wasn't at fault for the breakdown of our relationship. In fact, I also had already consulted an attorney. So if there is any chance for you to save your marriage, by understanding exactly what is truly going on with each other, it is so worth it for your son as well as yourself. That kind of communication when you are so far apart and in pain, usually only happens when you have some kind of facilitator. (One without a vested interest in the outcome.)

Please straighten me out if I'm way off base here!

[lepez 0]

lepez: I have probably been one of the, if not the, most vocal proponent of nume considering deconstructing her marriage. However her circumstances, in some ways, must be very different from yours. I don't know if I would be saying the same thing to you if I knew what you were up against. I'm not a psychologist, I'm only an older, very experienced woman who would like to keep anyone I can from making similar mistakes from the ones I made. Sharing our experiences here is very helpful and I wish it had been available when I was going through the devastating pain of feeling unloved, unappreciated and unsatisfied.

I have to tell you lepez, when I had been married to my current DH for about 3 years, we had very heated arguments over the fact that he was so controlling and needing to be the man in power over his family. I sure didn't want to have a second failed marriage athough I felt as if I had no identity of my own. If I thought I needed something, other than groceries, I had to fill out a sheet of paper with the reasons why I needed it. Then he would consider allowing me to spend the $15 or $25 I was asking for. A bunch of flowers? Forget it. A scented candle? Forget it.

I spoke with my Ob/Gyn and she recommended a great woman psychologist who I explained to my DH that I had to see or that I would leave him. He relented although he made fun of her and me at every opportunity. Turned out that she clearly saw my side and reinforced that he was unreasonably controlling. She saw me alone a few times and then she saw us together. She presented us with books on "Understanding the Male Myth" and others. She explained to DH that he was not sharing any intimacy with me and that I would eventually leave him if he did not give up his domineering ways and make me a more valuable partner in the marriage. My DH is a brilliant, fair, and big hearted guy and he realized that he didn't like the way we were living either. He realized that he was just functioning on "automatic" behaving as his role model father had. He changed, I changed some and now I trust him with every part of me.

Our marriage became something way beyond the normal marriage. We did have 2 years of concentrated effort, but it was something that we both decided that we wanted to do and that we were worth it. From then on we have happily traveled down the same path through life together and we are each others best friend. I never dreamed that being married could be so great.

Yes, we did hit some rocky slopes occasionally over the years, but we trusted each other with our feelings and we worked them out very quickly. Usually they had to do with things happening at his or my work that had us more stressed than we should have been. When you have someone on your team, all of the daily garbage that you have to deal with just doesn't seem so overwhelming.

At the time I went to the psychologist, I felt just as you expressed in your post that you are feeling now. I had no hope that we could have such a good outcome. In fact I was seeing the psychologist primarily to prove to myself that I wasn't at fault for the breakdown of our relationship. In fact, I also had already consulted an attorney. So if there is any chance for you to save your marriage, by understanding exactly what is truly going on with each other, it is so worth it for your son as well as yourself. That kind of communication when you are so far apart and in pain, usually only happens when you have some kind of facilitator. (One without a vested interest in the outcome.)

Please straighten me out if I'm way off base here!

You are not off base but we have already tried to see 2 therapists to help us. The first one completely sided with me so my husband thought he was "full of shit". We went to a second one who sided with me about 60% and my husband thought that going to him was not helping us. He decided that we could do it on our own and that was over 2 1/2 years ago. We haven't had sex in almost 2 years and we barely talk. When I do try to talk it ends poorly so we interact when my son is awake and then the minute he is in bed my husband goes outside or in the garage. I just accepted this until I started reading this thread and now I am really having second thoughts about being married. then I think about losing my son a couple days a week OR my son having a step mother and I remain in this loveless marriage. Yes, I know that it is not good for my son to see us as role models for marriage . I am really confused but I know for sure that I can not deny the pain and loneliness any longer.

[gadgetlady 4]

You are not off base but we have already tried to see 2 therapists to help us. The first one completely sided with me so my husband thought he was "full of shit". We went to a second one who sided with me about 60% and my husband thought that going to him was not helping us. He decided that we could do it on our own and that was over 2 1/2 years ago.

It sounds like the problem (among other things) is you had crappy therapists. Would you please take me up on my offer of sending some couples to a "Weekend to Remember"? I'll repost below so you can see it if you haven't already. It may not work a miracle but it's certainly worth a try!

DH and I have some friends who have been married for 7 years. They have been in counseling since they first got married. Their first counselor told them they should get a divorce (!). After about 6 years, they separated. We never knew about how serious their problems were until then. It is a lot of the same things I'm hearing here: just roommates, no communication, no intimacy, etc. We brought them over to our house and counseled them ourselves for about 4 hours; they said it was the best counseling they'd ever had. (No, we are not degreed or formally trained to do it; we just have a good understanding of human nature and are blessed with an exceptional marriage). We got them to a GOOD counselor and they are now back together, their marriage is transformed, and they're trying to have children.

All that is to say, there is hope for every marriage if the parties are willing to try to work on it. DH and I tried the same thing with another couple and they ended up divorced; they weren't willing to try anymore. But we firmly believe that with commitment and the willingness to work towards a common goal, every marriage can be outstanding.

[gadgetlady 4]

REPOST

My husband and I would like to bless two married couples from LBT with a "Weekend to Remember" marriage enrichment conference. You can get more information about it at Overview - Marriage Conference - Weekend to Remember. We will cover the cost of the conference for the weekend. You will need to cover transportation and hotel (if any). These conferences are held all over the country so most people should be able to find something close to them. Hotel arrangements may not even need to be made if the conference you attend is nearby. Go to WTR Registration - Step 1 for locations. For some testimonials of changed marriages through this conference, go to Changed Lives - Marriage Conference - Weekend to Remember.

To take advantage of this offer, please email me at veryblessedlife@gmail.com. DO NOT PM ME! My PM box is almost completely full and I don't have the energy to clean it out.

Please give me some details about yourself and your marriage in your email.

[BJean 16]

lepez: I certainly understand the problem. It was nearly impossible for me to talk my DH into seeing the psychologist. To makes matters worse, her last name was, Bozo. Can you believe it?! But when I finally got him to go, and we met with her together, she did not side with me at all. She just listened to what he had to say and then what I had to say, and then gave us feedback and asked questions. A good therapist helps people see what they need to do to resolve their issues, whether it is about marriage or some other problem. It isn't their job to tell their client what they should choose to do. They certainly shouldn't say that someone should get divorced. They should just assist each person in making decisions for themselves. But lets face it, there are a lot of poor psychologists out there. Psychologists are just people, not perfect, as with any profession.

I agree with gadget, sort of. I believe that most marriages can be saved if the right conditions exist. In the case where one person lies to another before they are married, about who they really are, then sometimes a divorce is the only answer. For instance, if someone is a homosexual but presents himself as a heterosexual before marriage, that is is a huge lie that has kept their spouse from knowing who they really are. One day the lie becomes too huge an obstacle for both people in the marriage to overcome, and unless both spouses give up on love and sex and intimacy, the marriage is doomed. Short of that, most marriages can be saved if both (or sometimes even just one) of the parties wants to save it.

My heart goes out to you. You have some difficult decisions to make. It sounds like your husband isn't being totally fair or honest with you. If you both can communicate the truth openly, about whatever you're unhappy with and why, there is a good chance that you can work things out.

I almost mentioned gadget's offer of a marriage encounter weekend before she posted it this time. It might just help to get you two communicating. Let's face it, at this point you probably want something to happen for better or worse so that you can get some relief!

[staindgal 0]

i may be way late to jump in on this thread, but i just need to vent some things that i now feel comfortable venting because of the things all of you have shared...

the last relationship i was in before i began dating my husband was super fun and filled with sex... i always felt desired! it was amazing! i was thin at that point, and i was still thin when i met my husband...

my husband was already heavy when i met him, and he would turn down my advances for sex all the time! i associated his lack of desire for sex to be that he was not attracted to me, and i began to eat my feelings. 150+ pounds later i realize that he was always very affectionate towards me, but that he simply could not have sex with me whenever i wanted him to because his weight was affecting his ability to do so... i built such a wall between us thinking that the lack of sex was because of me, but in the end it wasn't... and i missed all the signs.

now we're both fat, and he has very recently been diagnosed with diabetes. we have sex rarely, but he meets all of my emotional needs, and then excels. we are both working hard to lose weight together now, and i know that he wants our sex life to be different too... and i know that when we are both healthier, it'll happen.