who supports right to choose

[snuffy65 1]

The "don't believe in slavery then don't own a slave" gotcha comment doesn't hold Water cause you can define what a slave is.

However the idea that the beginning of life is at conception is YOUR BELIEF AND NOT MINE OR 65% OF THIS COUNTRY'S.

People defended slavery by saying that a black person was 3/5 of a person. All we have to do to deny people rights is define them as something less than a person. We need to learn the lessons of history.

EXACTLY!!! The view black people were 3/5 person was not the popular view. Hence why slavery was abolished. Where "life begins at conception" is not a popular view either.

Ever think that slavery argument you have might actually be backwards?

Edited April 1, 2008 by snuffy65

[gadgetlady 4]

The "don't beleive in slavery then don't own a slave" gotcha comment doesn't hold Water cause you can define what a slave is.

The thinking AT THE TIME and the LEGAL definition of a black person was 3/5 of a person. They believed genetically that a black person was less of a person than a white person. You and I know that definition is ludicrous NOW, but they didn't back THEN.

However the idea that the beginning of life is at conception is YOUR BELIEF AND NOT MINE OR 65% OF THIS COUNTRIES.

I would be willing to venture a guess that the belief that blacks weren't fully human was at greater than 65% prior to the Civil War. We shouldn't define personhood based on public opinion polls.

If opinion sways to where 65% of this country's population believes life begins at conception, would you be OK with the law changing to match that? I don't think so.

The bottom line is we need to base the law on facts, not on what people believe.

[snuffy65 1]

So can you answer me about birth control and the morning after pill then? Since women are taking drugs so that a "human life" gets flushed should they be in jail too?

[snuffy65 1]

Should a woman who goes out drinking not even know that they are pregnant yet get hauled to jail for neglecting their child?

[gadgetlady 4]

So can you answer me about birth control and the morning after pill then? Since women are taking drugs so that a "human life" gets flushed should they be in jail too?

I never mentioned jail for mothers who abort. And I'm happy to answer about birth control and the morning after pill: I have no problem whatsoever with birth control or anything that prevents ovulation and therefore conception. In fact, I'm a big fan of anything that prevents pregnancy in those who do not want to be pregnant. Once a separate human life is conceived, however, I don't believe a second human being has a right to take that life.

Now would you answer some of MY questions?

[gadgetlady 4]

Should a woman who goes out drinking not even know that they are pregnant yet get hauled to jail for neglecting their child?

Nope, don't think so.

[snuffy65 1]

I never mentioned jail for mothers who abort. And I'm happy to answer about birth control and the morning after pill: I have no problem whatsoever with birth control or anything that prevents ovulation and therefore conception. In fact, I'm a big fan of anything that prevents pregnancy in those who do not want to be pregnant. Once a separate human life is conceived, however, I don't believe a second human being has a right to take that life.

Now would you answer some of MY questions?

But you mentioned that life starts at conception. So person can take a drug and kill the "human being" but not have an abortion?So women will get a swift scolding when they abort after you make abortions illegal?

[snuffy65 1]

Nope, don't think so.

Well I don't get it. Apparently a woman can kill or stop a embyo from staying on the uterus wall anyway they wan't except for a medically monitored procedure?

You never answered the morning after pill question. And apparently you don't know that birth control is design to stop pregnancy in three ways. heres a tidbit of most common pregnancy pills:

"The hormones in the Pill can also sometimes affect the lining of the uterus, making it difficult for an egg to attach to the wall of the uterus."

You wouldn't want to jail woman who aborts? Would you not jail a woman and doctor who kills a 4 year old, 5 year old? Maybe a 6 year old? I still don't get it, if life begins at conception then don't the embryos have the same rights as a 5 year old.

And again with the slavery comment. Your assuming that eventually everyone (or at least enough people) will believe that life starts at conception. Also, yes alot less people believed that black people were less human. The majority of the people who believed this were the ones that went on record becuase they knew the laws of the country could not enslave 100% humans.

So maybe your just saying life begins at conception just so laws can be changed in your favor like the raicst southerners of the pre civil war era?

Edited April 1, 2008 by snuffy65

[gadgetlady 4]

The view black people were 3/5 person was not the popular view. Hence why slavery was abolished. Where "life begins at conception" is not a popular view either.

Ever think that slavery argument you have might actually be backwards?

You have your reasoning wrong. The view that black people were 3/5 of a person was the law as written into the US Constitution. It was also generally accepted among Southern states and slave owners that slaves were not fully deserving of the rights afforded whites because they were people of diminished capacity.

Slavery wasn't abolished due to it's lack of popularity. There was this little thing called the Civil War; even though the North won, people still weren't convinced about the full humanness of blacks.

In the end, however, it shouldn't matter who wins the popularity contest in any given year. Human life is not a nebulous theory swaying in the wind depending on current statistical analysis. Unique human individuals should be afforded the rights that all other unique human individuals have, regardless of their age or place of residence.

And again I ask: if the

Where "life begins at conception" is not a popular view either

became a popular view, would you accept the ban of abortion based on this popular view?

[gadgetlady 4]

But you mentioned that life starts at conception. So person can take a drug and kill the "human being" but not have an abortion?So women will get a swift scolding when they abort after you make abortions illegal?

Ok, let me try again. If the baby is already conceived, then I don't believe a mother should be able to take a drug and kill the baby.

And I believe in harsh sentences for the abortionists.

[gadgetlady 4]

Well I don't get it. Apparently a woman can kill or stop a embyo from stay on the uterus wall anyway they wan't except for a medically monitored procedure?

I don't get what you don't get, but I'm also not understanding 100% because of your grammar and spelling.

I'll try to make it really simple. Prevention of pregnancy: OK. Killing of a baby after conception by any means: Not OK.

[snuffy65 1]

I don't get what you don't get, but I'm also not understanding 100% because of your grammar and spelling.

I'll try to make it really simple. Prevention of pregnancy: OK. Killing of a baby after conception by any means: Not OK.

OK I will try harder this time.

You say life begins at conception

If life begins at conception then that sperm and egg that joined together then atteached itself to the mother is a human being correct?

Then you go on and tell me you wouldn't put a woman in jail for having abortion?

If life begins at conception then a woman having an abortion would be a murderer under you definitions.

So your not for putting murderers in jail?

[gadgetlady 4]

OK I will try harder this time.

You say life begins at conception

If life begins at conception then that sperm and egg that joined together then atteached itself to the mother is a human being correct?

Then you go on and tell me you wouldn't put a woman in jail for having abortion?

If life begins at conception then a woman having an abortion would be a murderer under you definitions.

So your not for putting murderers in jail?

Prior to Roe v. Wade, in states where abortion was illegal, the charges were always enforced against the abortionist, not the mother. There's no reason to believe that would change if/when Roe is reversed, but I guess that's up to the courts and the legislators.

Personally, I believe the culpability lies with those who take advantage of these mothers in their often emotional states, by convincing them that what's growing in the womb is a blob of tissue rather than a human being.

Again, another question answered. Would you like to answer some of mine, or just throw more questions at me? I think those who have been reading this thread since it's inception will verify that I'm happy to answer every question posed. I cannot say the same for one single person on the pro-abortion side.

[gadgetlady 4]

snuffy65, if you go back and perform historical revisions (changing your prior comments to add new arguments), I will likely miss them. If you have something new to say, please put it in a new post (that is, if you want me to respond. If, like in Congress, you just want the record to reflect something that didn't actually happen at the time of the discussion, continue editing away).

[BJean 16]

Earlier it was stated that if a sperm is left alone it will not become a person and that if an egg is left along it will not become a person but if a fertilized egg is left alone it WILL BECOME A PERSON. Now I finally get it... all this arguing and it has finally been revealed to me. Some people actually believe that a fertilized egg will always become a person - if nothing else happens. How very wrong that is!!! No wonder we have so many people at odds in this country.

Fertilized eggs will never become people unless they are given the proper nutrition from their hosts, proper nests in which to incubate for a certain length of time within their hosts, and all of the conditions of making a person are met - including a healthy labor and delivery. Fertilized eggs are not in and of themselves people. They are only the promise of people. They cannot survive if they are left alone. They are blobs of tissue without the proper conditions. Just like sperm is a blob of tissue and an egg is a blob of tissue. Just because they have united, never guarantees that a human being will be produced.