who supports right to choose

[BJean 16]

Everett Koop is your backup? Whoa, I'm surprised... Not.

The bottom line, gadget, is that to abort or not abort should never be put in the hands of people who are not physically involved in the decision. It is completely and utterly wrong for some people to have control over other people's bodies, even when they, like you and Everett Koop, believe they are doing it for the greater good.

There are several cases of women I know personally whose lives have been in jeapordy during labor and delivery. I don't think that I am an exception to the norm in this world. In fact, I almost lost my own daughter and I barely made it. Many women are told never to have children because of the risk of their own death. Birth control fails. In fact, all birth control fails some of the time.

I am sure it would be fine with you if those of us who have problems with pregnancy, labor and delivery, were to abstain from sex for the rest of our lives. In fact, you might even like to police our activities so that we could never become pregnant. That way, the decision of whether to carry a baby to term that we did not plan for, will never come up.

I am not willing, nor do I want my daughter to have to, petition the government with my doctor's testimony, if we were ever faced with an unwanted pregnancy. And I'll be damned if I'm going to abstain from sex just because you think it is wrong. Sex is a biological drive and a biological function that is healthy. God made me this way.

[gadgetlady 4]

I am sure it would be fine with you if those of us who have problems with pregnancy, labor and delivery, were to abstain from sex for the rest of our lives. In fact, you might even like to police our activities so that we could never become pregnant. That way, the decision of whether to carry a baby to term that we did not plan for, will never come up.

. . . I'll be damned if I'm going to abstain from sex just because you think it is wrong. Sex is a biological drive and a biological function that is healthy. God made me this way.

That's what you're falling back on? That I don't like sex and I want people to abstain for the rest of their lives? Give me a break! Wasn't I the one who told green that it was unconscionable that she couldn't find a doctor to sterilize her? Just for the record: I don't think sex is "wrong", as you state I do above, and I don't think people need to "abstain from sex for the rest of [their] lives." Quite a red herring there.

[green 6]

I know two women who almost died while giving birth. Both of these events happened within the past decade and both of these women very much wanted their children. One of these women was my cousin's wife. While she was having a caesarian the doc knicked a major artery and the poor woman almost bled out. The other individual was a lesbian friend of mine. She started haemmorhaging during childbirth. She told me later that it was both a terrifying and gruesome experience. Her hospital room looked like a slaughter house.

My brother, who is a doctor now practising in Virginia, was told in one of his first year med classes that until the development of 20th century medical techniques more women died during or immediately post child birth than men did in wars. Birthing was risky business.

[green 6]

As for me, if I were a young woman today I would still have the same problem. I would still be unable to arrange for my permanent sterilization.

[gadgetlady 4]

I know two women who almost died while giving birth. Both of these events happened within the past decade and both of these women very much wanted their children. One of these women was my cousin's wife. While she was having a caesarian the doc knicked a major artery and the poor woman almost bled out. The other individual was a lesbian friend of mine. She started haemmorhaging during childbirth.

These are two different issues. A doctor nicking an artery during a c-section isn't a foreseeable situation, nor is it a pre-existing condition. What we were talking about is a mother choosing to abort because she has a health condition that would cause her to die if they carried the baby to term. THAT situation is what I said was extremely rare.

You (and your brother) are absolutely right about women dying during childbirth pre-modern medicine. Thankfully, our world is very different with the advent of modern medical techniques. Which is precisely why there are precious few situations where a mother's life is physically threatened if she chooses to bring her baby to term.

[BJean 16]

No, not a red herring at all. I didn't say that you don't like sex. I said that the only way a person can insure that they don't get pregnant when they don't want to is by abstaining. I was merely trying to logic it through.

You say that it doesn't matter whether a woman wants to be pregnant or not. If a woman becomes pregnant she should have the baby.

So it make sense, logically, that your advice and wishes would be that I abstain from sex since it is dangerous to my health if I were to be impregnated. Of course you did say that women will always be able to get an abortion if their health is in danger.

I sincerely disagree. The government would make the ultimate decision - not the doctor, not me. That is, if you were to have your way and take that choice out of my hands.

[BJean 16]

Green if only you hadn't have added that caveat.

Be that as it may... you'll never convince me or my daughter that today's medicine makes pregnancy, labor and childbirth completely safe for women.

[gadgetlady 4]

No, not a red herring at all. I didn't say that you don't like sex. I said that the only way a person can insure that they don't get pregnant when they don't want to is by abstaining. I was merely trying to logic it through.

That's not what you said.

I am sure it would be fine with you if those of us who have problems with pregnancy, labor and delivery, were to abstain from sex for the rest of our lives. In fact, you might even like to police our activities so that we could never become pregnant.

. . .

And I'll be damned if I'm going to abstain from sex just because you think it is wrong.

To clarify my feelings on the matter, I believe that there are consequences that go along with all of the actions we choose to take. One of the consequences of having sex is pregnancy. One of the consequences of gambling is losing your money. One of the consequences of driving your car is you may get into an accident. Now you can choose to use birth control, only play the penny-slots, and buy a car with airbags and always wear your seat belt, but you still have to recognize the fact that there is still a chance of the consequences happening. If you can't accept the consequences, you shouldn't choose to participate in the action.

I have no desire to police anyone's activities -- certainly not yours! -- nor do I think sex is wrong.

So it make sense, logically, that your advice and wishes would be that I abstain from sex since it is dangerous to my health if I were to be impregnated.

If it is dangerous to your health to be pregnant, then get yourself sterilized. It's really not a stretch of the imagination here.

Of course you did say that women will always be able to get an abortion if their health is in danger.

I sincerely disagree. The government would make the ultimate decision - not the doctor, not me. That is, if you were to have your way and take that choice out of my hands.

Did the government have the ultimate decision when, in pro-life laws prior to 1972, there was an exception for the life of the mother?

[green 6]

Green if only you hadn't have added that caveat.

Be that as it may... you'll never convince me or my daughter that today's medicine makes pregnancy, labor and childbirth completely safe for women.

The issue of whether a woman will come to physical harm during childbirth or not is irrelevant to this conversation. My comments were in the way of musing on this issue of childbirth. The issue is whether the state has the right to force a woman to bear a child. The issue is the fact that sometimes women do unwillingly become pregnant. What are women's rights? Should they be forced to be sexually abstinent until they are prepared to have children? Well, the best way to ensure that is to entirely separate women from men. Maybe the traditional practices of Islam and of the Hasidim should become general practices in America, eh?

Should women who do find themselves unwillingly pregnant be forced to suffer the consequences? Should they be punished for their sexuality? Remember that it only takes one brief sexual encounter for a woman to find herself trapped by an unwanted pregnancy. Pregnancy can and does happen to good girls and to responsible women. It is not simply due payback for behaving like a slut. No woman should be forced to go through an unwanted pregnancy.

[marjon9 6]

What are women's rights? Should they be forced to be sexually abstinent until they are prepared to have children? Well, the best way to ensure that is to entirely separate women from men. Maybe the traditional practices of Islam and of the Hasidim should become general practices in America, eh?

Don't forget about Mao Tse-Tung. He had a very sensible idea for what to do with all those extra women running around. He offered to send 10 million of them to the U.S. This may be the best way to be sure that women are "entirely separate from men." Each country could just continuously pass along their women to the next country, on a regular schedule. Sort of like a check kiting scheme. Like I said, very sensible.

Chairman Mao proposed sending 10 million Chinese women to US: documents

[gadgetlady 4]

My brother, who is a doctor now practising in Virginia, was told in one of his first year med classes that until the development of 20th century medical techniques more women died during or immediately post child birth than men did in wars. Birthing was risky business.

Green if only you hadn't have added that caveat.

Why? Because you'd prefer that women still die in large numbers during childbirth? Or because you like to use the excuse that women die in large numbers to defend your argument?

[green 6]

Don't forget about Mao Tse-Tung. He had a very sensible idea for what to do with all those extra women running around. He offered to send 10 million of them to the U.S. This may be the best way to be sure that women are "entirely separate from men." Each country could just continuously pass along their women to the next country, on a regular schedule. Sort of like a check kiting scheme. Like I said, very sensible.

Chairman Mao proposed sending 10 million Chinese women to US: documents

I guess it is one way to see the world, eh.

[BJean 16]

gadget, you think we should become sterilized and that would make us responsible citizens in your eyes if we continue to have sex?

A very dear friend of mine had her tubes tied when she was 41 years old. She bacame pregnant two years later. No, she didn't have an abortion, but she did die when her daughter was 3. Cervical cancer. Fortunately her daughter was born healthy and without Down's Syndrome which is relatively common for people her parents' age. And her husband married a pretty young thing, and the little girl got a new mother, so I guess everything was hunkey dorey for everyone, but my friend, Sue of course.

Marjon, you crack me up.

[green 6]

Don't forget about Mao Tse-Tung. He had a very sensible idea for what to do with all those extra women running around. He offered to send 10 million of them to the U.S. This may be the best way to be sure that women are "entirely separate from men." Each country could just continuously pass along their women to the next country, on a regular schedule. Sort of like a check kiting scheme. Like I said, very sensible.

Chairman Mao proposed sending 10 million Chinese women to US: documents

Have vagina, will travel....

[gadgetlady 4]

gadget, you think we should become sterilized and that would make us responsible citizens in your eyes if we continue to have sex?

IF it is a danger to your health to carry a baby to term and you don't want any more children, wouldn't you prefer to not have to worry about birth control or accidental pregnancy? This doesn't seem like rocket science to me. I am 41 and don't want any more children so I am considering some form of permanent birth control so I don't have to think about it anymore. Not that I would kill my child should I accidentally become pregnant, but why not avoid the situation all together if I can?

A very dear friend of mine had her tubes tied when she was 41 years old. She bacame pregnant two years later. No, she didn't have an abortion, but she did die when her daughter was 3. Cervical cancer.

I am sorry for your friend and her family. To my knowledge there is no correlation between pregnancy and cervical cancer (I'm not sure if you were trying to imply that her unintended pregnancy was a contributing factor to her cancer).

Fortunately her daughter was born healthy and without Down's Syndrome which is relatively common for people her parents' age.

I don't know what your definition of "relatively common" is. The incidence of Down Syndrome in women age 40 is 1 in 60, or 1.66%. I don't consider that "relatively common" by any stretch of the imagination.