who supports right to choose

[anonemouse 1]

So his religion (which, btw, is not mine) has nothing to do with his decision.

Actually, his religion IS yours. A Catholic is a Christian, too. Different denomination, same religion.

[gadgetlady 4]

Actually, his religion IS yours. A Catholic is a Christian, too. Different denomination, same religion.

I used to be Catholic, so I'm well aware of the differences. While there are some commonalities, they are not the same religion.

[anonemouse 1]

I used to be Catholic, so I'm well aware of the differences. While there are some commonalities, they are not the same religion.

A Christian is a Christian is a Christian. A Catholic is a Christian. A Lutheran is a Christian. A Methodist is a Christian. An Anglican is a Christian. A Southern Baptist is a Christian. A Freewill Baptist is a Christian. (I could list all the different sects and denominations for you, but you get the point.) All Christians, all part of the same religion.

[Carlene 12]

I used to be Catholic, so I'm well aware of the differences. While there are some commonalities, they are not the same religion.

HUH?? Are you saying that Catholics aren't Christians? I beg to differ....and in this particular argument, history will bear me out. Unless, of course, you are inclined to argue with history.

[gadgetlady 4]

Having been both, I again disagree. Besides belief in a supernatural being, religion involves institutions and ritual observances. The institutions and ritual observances specific to Catholicism are not specific to evangelical Christian religions. While Protestants and Catholics may be similar in that they both profess Christ to be at the center of their faith, they are not the same religion at all in rituals and institutions. There are deep, significant doctrinal differences.

[gadgetlady 4]

HUH?? Are you saying that Catholics aren't Christians?

I didn't say that at all, nor did I even imply it. What I said was that Bernard Nathanson is a Catholic, and that's not my religion. laurend said it WAS my religion, and I disagreed.

[Carlene 12]

That must have been not only one clinic that he presided over, but a chain of abortion clinics.

It was the largest in state of New York, at the time.

Sorry, I had no idea that he was a converted Catholic. That makes it extremely understandable that he's being very vocal about his change of heart now. :paranoid

He describes himself as "an athiest Jew" until 1996. He "switched sides", so to speak, over 20 years before he converted.

Whatever you say, Carlene and gadgetlady. I am sure he's a wonderful man with a heart of pure gold and plenty of statistics to back it up. I am so very over this worn out topic. You haven't convinced me of anything, but I give up on this particular line of discussion. You win, he's a dreamboat of a human being - a veritable saint. Somebody that we should all listen to and follow to his dying day. Hopefully he'll be cannonized in not too many hundreds of years after he dies.

It was not my intention to convince you of anything. This was my first post on the thread, because, for one thing, I know how pointless it is to argue the whole issue. I was just trying to clarify the whole numbers thing.

I am not, by the way, rabidly pro-life or pro-choice. I tend to be more pro-mind-my-own-business. Except for late term abortions. I do have issues with those....especially the so-called partial birth procedure. The doctor who can perform one of those and still sleep at night is one cold-blooded SOB, IMHO.

[anonemouse 1]

I didn't say that at all, nor did I even imply it. What I said was that Bernard Nathanson is a Catholic, and that's not my religion. laurend said it WAS my religion, and I disagreed.

Actually, you did imply it. By saying that you are not of the same religion as a Catholic, you are saying that either you are not a Christian or that a Catholic is not a Christian. And I'm pretty sure that you describe yourself as a Christian. You are not the same denomination as Nathanson, but you are a member of the same religion.

[anonemouse 1]

Obviously, there are differences in dogma between the different denominations of Christianity, but they are all sects of Christianity. Therefore, they are the same religion.

[gadgetlady 4]

The way I define religion, and I think the way most people define religion, and certainly the way the dictionary defines religion, evangelical Christians and Catholics are not the same religion. If you were to ask Carlene and me if we were the same religion, I know I would say "no" and I'm reasonably sure Carlene would, too.

1. 1. 
      
   2. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
      
   3. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

[*]The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

According to 1b and 2, the Catholic religion is different from the evangelical Christian religion.

I know a lot of Catholics (my whole family is Catholic -- although some only socially -- meaning some are not followers of Christ), and not a single one of them would say they have the same religion as I.

[anonemouse 1]

Well, they'd be wrong. Christianity is your religion. Evangelical Christianity is your denomination. Just like Islam and Hindu are religions. There are different sects (denominations, if you want to call them that) of those religions, but they are all classified as Hindu or Islam. A Christian is a Christian, regardless of which denomination said Christian belongs to.

So, yeah, you and Carlene definitely don't belong to the same denomination. But you DO belong to the same religion.

[Carlene 12]

Having been both, I again disagree. Besides belief in a supernatural being, religion involves institutions and ritual observances. The institutions and ritual observances specific to Catholicism are not specific to evangelical Christian religions. While Protestants and Catholics may be similar in that they both profess Christ to be at the center of their faith, they are not the same religion at all in rituals and institutions. There are deep, significant doctrinal differences.

Okay....color me confused. Having been both what? Both Jewish and Catholic? Both Atheist and Christian?

Our friend Mr. Webster says this about Christianity:

Christianity

Pronunciation: "kris-chE-'a-n&-tE, "krish-, -'cha-n&-, "kris-tE-'a-

Function: noun

1 : the religion derived from Jesus Christ , based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies

2 : conformity to the Christian religion

3 : the practice of Christianity

History of Christianity

Christianity is based upon the teachings of Jesus, a Jew who lived his life in the Roman province of Palestine. Roman communications networks enabled Christianity to spread quickly throughout the Roman empire and eventually to the rest of Europe, and finally the entire globe.

As time progressed, Christianity divided into three major branches. The Roman Catholic branch of Christianity is the successor of the church established in Rome soon after Christ's death. It traces its spiritual history to the early disciples of Jesus. The Pope, or spiritual leader, traces his office's lineage back to St. Peter, the first Pope, one of Jesus' disciples. Roman Catholicism was originally predominately practiced in Ireland, Poland, France and Spain.

During the fourth century, the Roman Catholic church split and the Eastern Orthodox branch was formed.

The split was primarily a political one due to the division of the Roman Empire into western and eastern components. The two churches became officially separate in 1054. Orthodox churches are largely national, each associated with a particular country. Orthodoxy is common in Russia, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, the Ukraine, and Armenia.

The Protestant branch split from Roman Catholicism during the Reformation, a sixteenth and seventeenth century series of church reforms in doctrine and practice. This movement challenged the authority of the Pope, and became popular in Scandinavia, England, and the Netherlands. Protestantism eventually divided into many denominations which arose in response to disputes over doctrine, theology, or religious practice. Some of the large denominations today are Lutherans, Methodists and Baptists.

References

Shelley, Fred M. and Audrey E. Clarke, eds. Human and Cultural Geography. Dubuque, Iowa: Wm. C. Brown Publishers, 1994.

Now for the part we agree on.....yes, there are deep doctrinal differences between Catholics and Evangelical Christians. But we are both Christians. Evangelical Christians are just another branch of the same tree....just like Lutherans (where they have their roots, incidentally), Methodists, and those good old hard shelled Southern Baptists, God bless their casserole-carrying souls.

[gadgetlady 4]

Carlene, if someone asked you if you were the same religion as I (I attend an evangelical, fundamentalist Christian church), would you answer yes or no?

[anonemouse 1]

Carlene, if someone asked you if you were the same religion as I (I attend an evangelical, fundamentalist Christian church), would you answer yes or no?

She's already answered you.

Now for the part we agree on.....yes, there are deep doctrinal differences between Catholics and Evangelical Christians. But we are both Christians. Evangelical Christians are just another branch of the same tree....just like Lutherans (where they have their roots, incidentally), Methodists, and those good old hard shelled Southern Baptists, God bless their casserole-carrying souls.

[BJean 16]

You know Carlene, I left the computer feeling bad about my last post. It was terribly sarcastic and not representative of the real me. I hope. Sometimes I try to be funny, but I wasn't trying to be funny. I was just being snotty and scarastic. You are so right that to debate this issue, here or probably almost anywhere, is fruitless. Most people have pretty firm opinions on the topic. The reason I continued to argue is because there are people like my kids and some of the ones who post here who believe that abortion will always be legal and therefore if they are faced with such a decision, they'll make it at the time. So they really don't have to worry about it and in fact, aren't really sure why all the fuss.

I do not believe it will always be legal if the current administration has its' way. I do not believe that either of the past two presidential elections were without seriously screwed up procedures that caused the outcome, to not necessarily be the true will of the people. I distrust the party in power because of so many dishonest and underhanded things they've done during this administration and the ones previously. They were seriously stung by what happened to Nixon and it made them stronger and united and with the determination to be in power - no matter what they have to do. I believe that this abortion issue is somewhat at the heart of it. Not the full reason they wish to be in power, of course, but an important part of it.

I do not want my children and their children to live in a land where politicians control their medical care and personal, intimate decisions. They have no idea what that is like. I do. That's why I feel so strongly about it. That's why I let scarcasm slide onto my screen. I apologize for the tone of my post. This is an important issue that will not be solved here and certainly not solved by hatefulness or scarcasm. I've been repeatedly disgusted by that aspect of the opposition's approach so much that I'm embarrassed that I stooped to that level.

Anyone lurking out there, just know that women's rights over their bodies and their lives is at stake - and I am certainly not being melodramatic. If you ever had a friend or member of the family who was faced with a horrible, life-altering, unwanted pregnancy, you'd understand why allowing the government to control that aspect of their lives is completely and totally unacceptable.