who supports right to choose

[BJean 16]

LRBloom8: My we do have a lot in common! Except for how we conceived and the reasons we did. My DH at the time convinced me to get pregnant before he left for Viet Nam "in case he never came home and it could be his legacy." I willingly, once again, did what I thought was best for my husband and my marriage. My mother and his mother both thought it was the dumbest thing I could have done. My mom knew we had been having difficulties for some time.

Looking back I realized how selfish it was of him and how wrong it was of me to get pregnant with all the problems we were facing. I wish I had not done it. I do have a beautiful, brilliant, talented son, of whom I am extremely proud, but it doesn't take away from the fact that it was a completely stupid decision. Second dumbest decision I ever made.

Back then, abortion was illegal. I'm surprised that your families counseled you to abort. Were you Catholic? Or was the priest you confided in just a friend?

Btw, I was 7 months pregnant when he got his first R & R and we met in Hawaii. Did you do that too?

[BJean 16]

late: What science comes up with to define the beginning of life, will never prevent a determined woman from aborting her baby.

[BJean 16]

green: I get your point, but don't you think that would be a tad discriminatory?

[green 6]

green: I get your point, but don't you think that would be a tad discriminatory?

Oh, that you would have to be a un-believer to gain access to the right to choose? Oh, fer sure. I was just being a fool, eh. But it is true that there are a number of folks like myself, folks who simply do not believe in any religion whatsoever and who thus cannot understand these arguments based on religious texts. In most European countries our numbers are sufficiently significant that our disbelief is mainstream, if not the norm, and certainly the country I live in is much more secular. It is for this reason that in many industrialised nations the expectation that a scriptual text inform governmental policies is viewed as kind of odd. Now, I am aware that what I have already said is offensive to many of my friends here on LBT and so I will plunge on and say that to many folks who live outside the U.S. the only difference between the current engagement of Islam in third world politics and the advancement Christian agenda in American politics is one of degree.

[L8BloomR 1]

LRBloom8: My we do have a lot in common! Except for how we conceived and the reasons we did. My DH at the time convinced me to get pregnant before he left for Viet Nam "in case he never came home and it could be his legacy." I willingly, once again, did what I thought was best for my husband and my marriage. My mother and his mother both thought it was the dumbest thing I could have done. My mom knew we had been having difficulties for some time.

Looking back I realized how selfish it was of him and how wrong it was of me to get pregnant with all the problems we were facing. I wish I had not done it. I do have a beautiful, brilliant, talented son, of whom I am extremely proud, but it doesn't take away from the fact that it was a completely stupid decision. Second dumbest decision I ever made.

Back then, abortion was illegal. I'm surprised that your families counseled you to abort. Were you Catholic? Or was the priest you confided in just a friend?

Btw, I was 7 months pregnant when he got his first R & R and we met in Hawaii. Did you do that too?

Yes, our families were and are Catholic, but very liberal.... my Mom was so upset with me for getting pregnant she didn't talk to me for a week. I suppose I should add that she was a raging alcoholic and was angry at everything then...:cry Our priest knew our situation and was very understanding but the abortion subject was fairly new then and he mostly just listened to me and counseled me instead of condemning what I was planning. By the way, my husband and I are still Catholic, but much more traditional than our families (bet you aren't surprised, huh?)

I remember abortion as just becoming legal then.... maybe I am mistaken and it was just that we knew so many girls having them that I am thinking they were, or maybe it was just easier in California. You have now made me question my memory! In any case, both our families were in upheaval and my DH and I were soooooo young and immature. At least your DH wanted you to be pregnant!! Mine was very unhappy and made me feel terrible as if it was MY fault (we both had a lot of growing up to do, but the good news is that we did, especially him...)

My DH didn't actually go to Viet Nam. His mother committed suicide shortly after he left and he had to come home and was given a hardship deferment in order to stay nearby to help raise his young sister (his father was also an alcoholic.) We had alot going on in those early years!!

BJean, I am a little surprised that you still feel that getting pregnant was one of your worse decisions. Is it because you feel you missed out on something important, or a career got derailed? Or that it impacted your life in a negative way? I know that for me it meant more of a financial struggle and made me become a real adult before I wanted to (and before my friends did), but I think the benefits far outweighed the bad. I am curious as to why, even with your son turning out so well, that you don't feel that same way. I am not prying, just wanting to understand.....

And thanks for your input, I do appreciate it

[gadgetlady 4]

Howzabout a law that would forbid all practising Christians to involve themselves in abortions? Those of us who are not Christians will continue to have the right to choose. We do, afterall, have a right to our beliefs and our beliefs on this subject are quite different to yours.

Because the scientific determination of when life begins has absolutely nothing to do with faith or with Christianity.

I will again go back to the discussion of whether a black person is a complete human being or 3/5 of a human being, like much of America used to believe. The legal determination about the diminished humanity of black people was completely wrong and yet it was accepted by the society and allowed the legal subjugation of blacks.

The point is, we don't get to decide for other people whether or not they are worthy of living. It's not our decision to make. You have a right to believe whatever you want to believe, but when your beliefs cause the death of another human being that's where we should draw the line.

[gadgetlady 4]

Whose faith? Are you saying that you have faith that one person does or does not have a soul? What makes you decide?

You are really confusing me. I do not believe the discussion of matters of faith should enter into the discussion of abortion. I do not decide whether people have souls. And my belief about whether a person has a soul will not affect the reality of whether a person has a soul. Either people have souls or they do not. If I believe they do and they do, I'm right. If I believe they do and they don't, I'm wrong. If I believe they don't and they do, I'm wrong. If I believe they don't and they don't, I'm wrong. WHAT I believe does not determine the truth. Just like WHAT I believe does not bestow humanity on an unborn baby. Either the unborn baby is a human being or he/she is not. My personal beliefs, and everyone else's personal beliefs, do not change reality and do not change the truth. There's nothing relative about the issue.

[gadgetlady 4]

I am not judging those who chose abortion... I remember that desparate, "what do I do now?" feeling

Thank you for sharing your story with us, L8BloomR. I picked this phrase out particularly because sometimes when we women find ourselves in the horrible situation of being pregnant when we don't want to, abortion seems like an "easy" way out. I'm not saying abortion is ever easy, but to a scared woman who is grasping at anything to get out of a difficult situation, it can seem like it has a finality to it. What most women forget, or never know, is that the first trimester of pregnancy is one of the most emotional and hormonal times of a woman's life -- and therefore crises are often magnified. I'm not saying some women don't find themselves in dire situations -- obviously they do -- but that the short-sighted vision of a woman in a crisis situation is not always 20/20.

I think anyone who's had a pregnancy scare when they didn't want to be pregnant has thought about abortion -- whether it be a fleeting thought or a serious one. It is therefore never our place to judge, but rather to offer solutions and alternatives.

[gadgetlady 4]

One day science will be advance enough to prove that life does begin at conception and then all those arguments about faith vs. science will be void.

Science has already proved it. There is no honest scientist in the WORLD who will pinpoint the beginning of human life at any place other than conception. The real argument is not about the presence of human life, but rather about the value of that life.

[L8BloomR 1]

Thank you for sharing your story with us, L8BloomR. I picked this phrase out particularly because sometimes when we women find ourselves in the horrible situation of being pregnant when we don't want to, abortion seems like an "easy" way out. I'm not saying abortion is ever easy, but to a scared woman who is grasping at anything to get out of a difficult situation, it can seem like it has a finality to it. What most women forget, or never know, is that the first trimester of pregnancy is one of the most emotional and hormonal times of a woman's life -- and therefore crises are often magnified. I'm not saying some women don't find themselves in dire situations -- obviously they do -- but that the short-sighted vision of a woman in a crisis situation is not always 20/20.

I think anyone who's had a pregnancy scare when they didn't want to be pregnant has thought about abortion -- whether it be a fleeting thought or a serious one. It is therefore never our place to judge, but rather to offer solutions and alternatives.

You are spot on, Gadget. I had forgotten about that hyper-emotional stage, and it is a powerful one! Thank you for your insightful post.

[gadgetlady 4]

I remember abortion as just becoming legal then.... maybe I am mistaken and it was just that we knew so many girls having them that I am thinking they were, or maybe it was just easier in California. You have now made me question my memory!

Don't question your memory Abortion was legal in some states, one of them California, before the Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton in 1972, which decriminalized abortion throughout the entire 9 months of pregnancy in every state in the US.

[L8BloomR 1]

Don't question your memory Abortion was legal in some states, one of them California, before the Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton in 1972, which decriminalized abortion throughout the entire 9 months of pregnancy in every state in the US.

Thanks.... I was beginning to worry about my mind. I guess I can hold off on that check-up now...:biggrin1:

[marjon9 6]

"Science has already proved it. There is no honest scientist in the WORLD who will pinpoint the beginning of human life at any place other than conception."

I have not taken a poll of all "honest" scientists, so I can't comment on the accuracy of that particular statement. But I can say, in general, that "science" can never "prove" when life begins. "Science" can do no more than establish certain facts. Science can say that "this DNA combined at conception with that DNA and then certain physical changes occurred in the cells," etc. But science cannot "prove" that this constitutes "life." This question is, and always will be, a matter of conscience, not science. There is no "advance" in science that can ever "prove" that this group of four cells is "life."

"The real argument is not about the presence of human life, but rather about the value of that life."

Naturally, we disagree on this as well. The real argument is about who gets to decide the proper course of action in a given situation. Will the state/church get to decide what others are forced to do in this matter of conscience? Or does the individual who faces all the consequences have the control over their own lives and bodies. That is clearly where the real argument lies.

[BJean 16]

Mark, once again you make my point much better, and in fewer words, than I do! Thank you.

L8BloomR: I honestly had no idea that there were states where abortion was legal earlier than Roe v. Wade. I'm an Okie, what can you expect? We didn't get alcohol by the drink until, letsee...well, not all that many years ago. Oklahoma is the buckle of the Bible Belt!

I generally don't have a lot of regrets. I've learned something each and every mistake along the way. But having a child that you have no possible way of taking care of is just plain stupid. I regret having been that stupid. Having children is so much more important than I understood at the time.

If I had not married so young, been incredibly unhappy and in pain, had to face the Viet Nam war up close and personal, and made the decision (quite stupidly and naively) to have a child when I had no business having one (by the way, I made that decision along with my husband at the time - God didn't decide it for us), I would have been able to prevent my son from having to endure not living with his two biological parents, watching his mother barely make ends meet, struggle to grow up while under scrutiny for having a single parent when it was extremely looked down on, learning that he was adopted, struggling to understand his conflicted feelings about his fathers, and the list goes on. He is an adult now and still has some conflicted feelings about all this. If I had been a smarter girl, I could have prevented all of that (and more) for him. He deserved better, as all children do. Anyway, thanks for asking and for trying to understand someone like me.

Your timing must have been at the back end of the Viet Nam war, eh? In the late 60's, abortions were still back-alley procedures where I come from. It was all very hush-hush, and usually no one but the parents (maybe) and the girl ever talked about it. For a priest not to have come completely unglued at the very mention of abortion, is unheard of where I'm from. California - a different set of rules, eh?

In fact, I still remember when Ms. magazine was first published, I don't remember the date but sometime in the early or mid-1970's. It was absolutely shocking that they published a list of women who had decided to "come out" and admit that they had had an abortion. The list was amazing - so many famous and respected women were on that list. It opened a dialogue among women at the time about the pros and cons of abortions. It sure made me stop and think after meeting both women who had done it and women who had opted not to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, and I decided real quick that I should never, ever, tell another woman what she MUST do in the event of an unwanted pregnancy. That is not the kind of world I want to live in again.

[green 6]

Ah Mark, it is always such a pleasure to read your comments on these questions. You invariably say what I am still trying to sort out and you do so in such a coherent and elegant manner. Thanks, kid.