who supports right to choose

[Cleo's Mom 257]

I think we understand, Pattygreen, that you believe abortion is murder and killing a human being from the moment of conception. And that it is a sin. You can think that.

And since you think that - then don't ever get an abortion and don't let your daughter get an abortion. And you have the right to pray for all those sinners, too.

But aside from that - get out of the way of those who don't share that same belief - from believing that a fertilized egg is a person or that abortion is a sin.

It doesn't matter what science you believe or what religion you believe about the embryo or fetus. The government does not assign full human status to either. Therefore, stop trying to impose your personal religious belief on our government who needs to stay out of our personal medical decisions.

You don't want the government in our healthcare but you want the government in each pregnant woman's gynecologists office standing over the woman's shoulder and telling her what she can and can't do with her pregnancy.

And then to carry it further, if she has an abortion you want this same government to throw her pregnant body into jail to give birth in jail. You don't have the right to advocate this. Just don't have an abortion yourself and make sure your daughter doesn't and

STAY OUT OF THE REST OF OUR MEDICAL BUSINESS!!! WE DON'T WANT YOU THERE!!

[BJean 16]

The fact is, you have no right to be there no matter how strongly you feel that God has assigned you the task of saving unborn babies by controlling the mother. Leave the control to God. You have neither the right nor the grace of God to have that kind of power over others.

[pattygreen 5]

You don't want the government in our healthcare but you want the government in each pregnant woman's gynecologists office standing over the woman's shoulder and telling her what she can and can't do with her pregnancy.

You want the government to be in control of your healthcare. You have repeatedly said so with your stand on the public option. Well, having an abortion or not is in its control.

And then to carry it further, if she has an abortion you want this same government to throw her pregnant body into jail to give birth in jail. You don't have the right to advocate this.

If she has an abortion, she wont be pregnant anymore while she sits in jail, therefore, she wont be delivering anything in prison. She'd be doing her time for murder.

Edited January 6, 2010 by pattygreen

[pattygreen 5]

get out of the way of those who don't share that same belief

Many people believe that it is okay to have more than one wife. Who is the government to say that they can't?

Many poeple 'believe' that it is okay to smoke pot. Who is the government to say that they can't?

Many people believe that it is okay to have sex with children. (Yes, they really do) Who is the government to say that they can't?

You see, the government advocates for what is morally right all the time. Who is to say that they can't for abortion? You? Because you feel that it is okay, the government can't step in and make a law against it?

Whether it is spoken for or against in the bible is irrelevent. Many people believe, for whatever reason, that it is wrong and therefore should be banned. Just like they believe marajuana smoking is wrong, and just like they believe sibling marriage is wrong. Hey, Why not marry your brother or sister? Some believe it is okay. Whose to say you can't? So, you see, the people get their morals from somewhere.

[pattygreen 5]

More Americans “Pro-Life” Than “Pro-Choice” for First Time

PRINCETON, NJ -- A new Gallup Poll, conducted May 7-10, finds 51% of Americans calling themselves "pro-life" on the issue of abortion and 42% "pro-choice." This is the first time a majority of U.S. adults have identified themselves as pro-life since Gallup began asking this question in 1995.

This tells me that the majority now favor laws opposing abortion.

[pattygreen 5]

[pattygreen 5]

I believe that the above graph shows that people who were once in the dark thinking that the baby was nothing but a blob of tissue have finally come to realize that they were wrong. It really is a life that has every right to be born.

Just a side note: * just because a philosophically and scientifically plausible position may also be found in religious literature such as the Bible, that does not mean such a view is exclusively “religious.”

If it did, then our society would have to dispense with laws forbidding such crimes as murder and robbery simply because such actions are prohibited in the Hebrew-Christian Scriptures.

[pattygreen 5]

Let us imagine a person who believes that Jews are human persons, and that the extermination of Jews is murder. Many of us will find that exercise fairly easy, because we are people of that sort ourselves. So we may as well take ourselves to be the people in question. And let us now go on to imagine that we live in a society in which the “termination” of Jews is an every-day routine procedure, a society in which public facilities are provided in every community for this operation, and one in which any citizen is free to identify and denounce Jews and to arrange for their arrest and termination.

In that imaginary society, many of us will know people who have themselves participated in these procedures, many of us will drive past the termination centers daily on our way to work, we can often see the smoke rising gently in the late afternoon sky, and so on.

And now imagine that someone tells us that if we happen to believe that Jews are human beings then that's O.K., we needn't fear any coercion, nobody requires us to participate in the termination procedure ourselves. We need not work in the gas chamber, we don't have to denounce a Jew, and so on. We can simply mind our own business, walk quietly past the well-trimmed lawns, and (of course) pay our taxes.

Can we get some feel for what it would be like to live in that context?...And maybe we can then have some understanding of why they [the right-to-lifers] are unlikely to be satisfied by being told that they don't have to get abortions themselves.

[pattygreen 5]

when does life begin?

Many in the science field hold that life begins at conception.

[tdslf1 0]

Yet again, you misinterprete facts. Sure those figures indicate that people are pro-life. But behind those figures are people like me who say they don't approve of abortion. I don't approve of abortion unless it is necessary. You are yet again arguing about the fact that those answers are based on no abortion and if it is a baby or not. No, it is not.

The argument is not that. The argument is the choice. I have the choice to have it or not and so does every other female. We have been over this ground,which came to a head with Roe vs. Wade. It's called progress and in order to grow the country must move forward. No one and I mean no one is going to introduce a bill that will turn the clock back for women. No one will and let it pass. No one.

Our country is simply too diverse to start interpreting laws based on religion alone. Only reason there are religious aspects in our laws now is because they work for everyone, the vast majority. When they don't work for the vast majority, it will change.

[Cleo's Mom 257]

You don't want the government in our healthcare but you want the government in each pregnant woman's gynecologists office standing over the woman's shoulder and telling her what she can and can't do with her pregnancy.

You want the government to be in control of your healthcare. You have repeatedly said so with your stand on the public option. Well, having an abortion or not is in its control.

I have never said I want the government in charge of my healthcare, nor does the current healtcare reform bill do that. The abortion language in the healthcare bill is about how abortions will be paid for. The government doesn't control whether a woman has an abortion or not, nor care if she does or doesn't. It was a supreme court decision based on the woman's right to privacy.

And then to carry it further, if she has an abortion you want this same government to throw her pregnant body into jail to give birth in jail. You don't have the right to advocate this.

If she has an abortion, she wont be pregnant anymore while she sits in jail, therefore, she wont be delivering anything in prison. She'd be doing her time for murder.

There would be sting operations netting the pregnant women before they had the illegal abortion.

[BJean 16]

patty: "Whether it is spoken for or against in the bible is irrelevent. Many people believe, for whatever reason, that it is wrong and therefore should be banned. Just like they believe marajuana smoking is wrong, and just like they believe sibling marriage is wrong. Hey, Why not marry your brother or sister? Some believe it is okay. Whose to say you can't? So, you see, the people get their morals from somewhere."

You equate smoking marijuana and sibling marriage to abortion? Those are unbelievable analogies.

[BJean 16]

patty: "Let us imagine a person who believes that Jews are human persons, and that the extermination of Jews is murder. Many of us will find that exercise fairly easy, because we are people of that sort ourselves. So we may as well take ourselves to be the people in question. And let us now go on to imagine that we live in a society in which the “termination” of Jews is an every-day routine procedure, a society in which public facilities are provided in every community for this operation, and one in which any citizen is free to identify and denounce Jews and to arrange for their arrest and termination.

In that imaginary society, many of us will know people who have themselves participated in these procedures, many of us will drive past the termination centers daily on our way to work, we can often see the smoke rising gently in the late afternoon sky, and so on.

And now imagine that someone tells us that if we happen to believe that Jews are human beings then that's O.K., we needn't fear any coercion, nobody requires us to participate in the termination procedure ourselves. We need not work in the gas chamber, we don't have to denounce a Jew, and so on. We can simply mind our own business, walk quietly past the well-trimmed lawns, and (of course) pay our taxes."

For the love of God, patty, please think twice before using this kind of language and these kinds of analogies. Do you have any concept of how repulsive and insulting and inappropriate your post is?

It is amazing to know what lengths anti-choice folks will go in order to shock people in an effort to influence their thinking regarding abortion. It is no different than the kinds of posts we have seen before about people of color and slavery. Do you people have no conscience? No dignity? No feelings for people other than that potential human being in some female's womb? It is sickening the depths to which you will sink to turn people off to a serious discussion on this debate - particularly when you are losing.

[BJean 16]

People have morals without religion. They know right from wrong without the Bible. Good and bad are obvious when you are exposed to life situations even from the time you are a small child.

Some people are capable of being extremely good and some lean toward being extremely bad people. Some are born with disfunctional brains and black hearts. Some are born with brilliant minds and pure hearts. It has to do with our genetic makeup and with our exposure to our environment from the day we are born.

What organized religion gives us is a well orchestrated sense of guilt. It gives us some good things as well. But it relies too much on guilt and fear for it to be the ultimate reason for people to be good.

Many people use religion to be able to feel forgiveness for the terrible lives they have led or even continue to lead. Therein lies the rub.

If people would just rely on their innate sense of fairness and good over bad, there wouldn't be this use of religion to excuse their wrongdoings by saying that God forgives them and so they will still go to heaven. Like heaven is the only reason they try to be better in this life - like the way out of their every bad decision is to ask for God's forgiveness and eventually get into heaven. They blame the devil for their wrongdoings and bad thoughts. In stead of taking responsiblity for their impure thoughts and wrong deeds, they blame someone or something else.

I believe in spirituality and prayer but my goal in life is to be good to others and to live a life that God would be proud of, not in order to get into heaven. I believe that living a good life is a reward in and of itself. I know that if I am kind to others it is the right thing to do. And I know that when I think hateful thoughts about someone, they are my thoughts and I am responsible for them.

I also believe that people on this earth, everywhere, have the right to live in peace. And they have the right to govern their own bodies and to live however their hearts and their minds guide them. We should not have a segment of society telling us that we must live exactly by their standards because I know that those people in that segment of their holier-than-thou society are merely people - they are imperfect and many times wrong. Spiritual and physical decisions in my life should be mine to make, not someone elses.

We have laws governing our society because we need to have consequences for behavior that is disruptive to everyone being able to live safely and without threat of someone taking their material things or their life.

We have many bumps on our road down life's pathway and we must deal with them in the best possible way that we can. I share in the belief that abortion should not be used as birth control or a procedure that is taken lightly without thoughts of consequences.

But I know for a fact, that women face many issues, physical and mental, that could require that procedure to be a necessary part of the continuance of their own precious lives. What anti-choice people seem to believe is that no matter what - women should never be able to make their own decision if they are faced with an unwanted, unplanned, life-threatening pregnancy. They believe that the government should have the power to tell women that whatever the woman's circumstances, she must endeavor to carry an unwanted, unplanned, potential threat to her life, to full term, no mattter what.

For those who have been influenced by the right wing rhetoric and fantastically morbid fear mongering, I hope that they will put aside those prejudicial images and think about whether women should be controlled, in each and every case, no matter what their circumstances, by the very imperfect deciders in congress.

[rodriguezequal 3]

Wow your charts are pretty, but what you failed to post was the other charts...the ones that said 53% say abortion should be legal under certain circumstances, 23% say it should be legal in all circumstances and only 23% say it should be out right illegal. There was also another chart that says 22% say legal under any, 15% legal under most, 37% legal under a few and only 23% want it completely illegal....how is it you only post the charts and stats that fit your arguement when all of these were on the same page...hmmm curious