who supports right to choose

[pattygreen 5]

patty, regarding her thoughts on how people get to heaven: "... I said that every person makes their own choice about if they want to go to heaven or not."

Didn't you explain to us that the only way for that to happen is for us to become "born again" Christians? And that becoming "born again" is a direct command from God if we want to go to heaven?

Yes. It's your 'choice' to become a 'born again' christian or not. What don't you get about that?

..................................................................

[Alexandra 55]

Back in the olden days, there was very little crime because if you were caught stealing, you were publicly hung for all to view. Even the children. Believe me, they grew up and didn't even want to go there. They stayed away from crime because they knew what was in store for them.

Huh? When were these crime-free "olden days" you so fondly cite?

[Lydiafree 0]

It's funny how some people think that to lock a man into a cage and subject him to physical and sexual abuse on a daily basis by other men is a humane thing to do to criminals who commit murder, yet simply injecting them and ridding them from society is far more cruel. Back in the olden days, there was very little crime because if you were caught stealing, you were publicly hung for all to view. Even the children. Believe me, they grew up and didn't even want to go there. They stayed away from crime because they knew what was in store for them. Today, the death penalty takes a criminal 20 or more years with the appeals process before it ever is applied. Criminals know this. We have no more room for these murderewrs. We also have DNA today to 'prove' who did what. Which makes the argument for capital punishment even better.

So, now we have Ms. Green telling us that hanging people for stealing - apparently regardless of the reason - was a good thing because, sans any proof whatsoever, she claims the "olden" days were less crime-laden. (Oh boy, is that entirely wrong)

And that we should apparently be exactly like the most violent criminals when its convenient for us. You know, if Ms. Pro-Life deems them to deserve death.

Too bad there isn't a puking emoticon.

[pattygreen 5]

Huh? When were these crime-free "olden days" you so fondly cite?

You have to admit that in the 17 and 1800's there was FAR less crime than there is today.

[pattygreen 5]

It is always a good thing to set an example for the rest. Someone may have to be the 'example' , but that's far better than the rest of them falling into the same sin.

[Alexandra 55]

You have to admit that in the 17 and 1800's there was FAR less crime than there is today.

No, I don't have to admit that at all. The population was a mere fraction of what it is today, but complete lawlessness was the rule in many places. Where on earth do you get the idea there was far less crime??

[pattygreen 5]

No, I don't have to admit that at all. The population was a mere fraction of what it is today, but complete lawlessness was the rule in many places. Where on earth do you get the idea there was far less crime??

We can take just one town as an example: An Historian, Roger Mcgrath, went back through court documents and newspaper reports to reconstruct the actual crime rates in the five-year period when Bodie, California was booming.(1870's) The town of Bodie had 31 murders, for an annual rate of 116 per 100,000, twenty times the national rate for the U.S. in 2007. Even our most murderous cities like Baltimore and Detroit have murder rates less than half of Bodie’s.

The point is that crime ALWAYS steadily increases. It never decreases. No matter how hard people try to make laws and stall crime, it only gets worse. America's decline is due to God's removal of his blessings from us and the moral decline of it's people due to thier disbelief in Him.

[rodriguezequal 3]

What I meant was -if it makes you feel better to think that you don't have a free will, and God controls you like a puppet or a robot, then go ahead.Think that way. You will not have to blame yourself for any actions that you ever take in life. That lie you told, that thing you stole, that bad thought you had, etc. God made you do it. He controls your will, not you.

I do not believe in your god so this is not an issue for me. I make my own choices and mistakes and I deal with them, without the help of an imaginary friend or some invisiable force...just little old me and maybe with the support of friends and family!

[rodriguezequal 3]

We can take just one town as an example: An Historian, Roger Mcgrath, went back through court documents and newspaper reports to reconstruct the actual crime rates in the five-year period when Bodie, California was booming.(1870's) The town of Bodie had 31 murders, for an annual rate of 116 per 100,000, twenty times the national rate for the U.S. in 2007. Even our most murderous cities like Baltimore and Detroit have murder rates less than half of Bodie’s.

The point is that crime ALWAYS steadily increases. It never decreases. No matter how hard people try to make laws and stall crime, it only gets worse. America's decline is due to God's removal of his blessings from us and the moral decline of it's people due to thier disbelief in Him.

Because they had to act on a guess or actually seeing someone do something. We didn't have DNA test or fingerprinting too far back in the olden days. By the way a lot of kids that were hung for stealing were starving so they had to steal food to survive!!! Go'ds removals...ha of what blessings? AIDS? Cancer? HIV? SIDS? wow oh gos please don't take all of these wonderful blessings away!!!

[BJean 16]

patty: "We can take just one town as an example: An Historian, Roger Mcgrath, went back through court documents and newspaper reports to reconstruct the actual crime rates in the five-year period when Bodie, California was booming.(1870's) The town of Bodie had 31 murders, for an annual rate of 116 per 100,000, twenty times the national rate for the U.S. in 2007. Even our most murderous cities like Baltimore and Detroit have murder rates less than half of Bodie’s.

"The point is that crime ALWAYS steadily increases. It never decreases. No matter how hard people try to make laws and stall crime, it only gets worse. America's decline is due to God's removal of his blessings from us and the moral decline of it's people due to thier disbelief in Him."

patty that is an amazing post. It is typical of right wing rethoric, which are often filled with extreme situations and data that may or may not have any bearing whatsoever on the topic in question.

What about the town down the road? You know, the one where there were no crimes during the period you cited.

I have so much more to say on the subject, but I have to leave my keyboard. My mind is still reeling from your inane posts.

If you were a true historian, you'd know that cutting off people's hands, stoning them, hanging them in the public square never put an end to crime. And if you would just logic things through to their natural end, you'd realize that the population isn't decreasing so why should we expect crime to decrease?

I'll tell you once more so that you will maybe go do some of your own research, capital punishment does not deter crime. There are volumes written on the topic. (The volumes I speak of are not right wing in nature, of course.)

[pattygreen 5]

Because they had to act on a guess or actually seeing someone do something. We didn't have DNA test or fingerprinting too far back in the olden days. By the way a lot of kids that were hung for stealing were starving so they had to steal food to survive!!! Go'ds removals...ha of what blessings? AIDS? Cancer? HIV? SIDS? wow oh gos please don't take all of these wonderful blessings away!!!

AIDS? Are you serious? AIDS , IMO, is something that mankind has brought upon himself. AIDS is a consequence or result of mans sinful acts of homosexuality. If people would live as God deemed right, we wouldn't even have that disease. Men and women who don't have sex until they are married and then keep to only their spouse has no fear of contracting AIDS, and if they do get it, it was brought to them by someone elses wrong doing accidentally. (The sins of others also effect everyone around them) Because of the sin of some, even poor babies are born because their moms had the Virus, and people were innocently infected with the disease thru needles.

God's blessings include: an abundance of food, a great military, his protections, peace, You don't see any war on our land, do ya? (If you say yes with 9/11, that's because of his starting to remove his blessings). Americas blessings are too numerous to count compared to other nations or lands. Is all you can see misery?

[BJean 16]

Have you even looked at the quality of life in other developed nations, patty? If you measure our quality of life by the number of possessions we have, I'm pretty sure we win. Otherwise, in several cases we surely do not.

Have you read the newspaper or watched the news lately? The killings in our schools, the murder of a doctor because of a radical extremist viewpoint contrary to the law, murder of a man just yesterday brought on by bigotry and ignorance, someone in Arkansas right before that, swine flu pandemic, near collapse of our economy, hundreds of thousands of people out of work, deaths in our hospitals from an extremely virulent virus, deaths in our hospitals from human error, people who are sick and injured being turned out into the street from our hospitals because of no insurance and lack of funds, do I need to go on? Just because you're enjoying life and you are quite comfortable with turning your back on people who need food in spite of the fact that they smoke, it doesn't mean that everyone else in this nation is better off than they might be if they lived in Sweden, for instance.

If you're saying God gives us free will and then you tell us that bad things happen to us "... because of his starting to remove his blessings" you are cherry picking what you want to believe from the Bible and you're probably enhancing and embellishing as you go along to suit your beliefs on a daily basis. Yeah, I know, you'll come back at me with more arguments that you didn't say (God said them.) Color me unimpressed and turned completely off.

[BJean 16]

I guess the Swine Flu that has just been declared a pandemic was caused from some non-born again who kissed a pig.

Wonder why a vision of Sarah Palin just flashed through my head?

[pattygreen 5]

Have you even looked at the quality of life in other developed nations, patty? If you measure our quality of life by the number of possessions we have, I'm pretty sure we win. Otherwise, in several cases we surely do not.

Have you read the newspaper or watched the news lately? The killings in our schools, the murder of a doctor because of a radical extremist viewpoint contrary to the law, murder of a man just yesterday brought on by bigotry and ignorance, someone in Arkansas right before that, swine flu pandemic, near collapse of our economy, hundreds of thousands of people out of work, deaths in our hospitals from an extremely virulent virus, deaths in our hospitals from human error, people who are sick and injured being turned out into the street from our hospitals because of no insurance and lack of funds, do I need to go on?

At one time, these things were not as prevelent as they are today.

Exactly, see what I mean? America (an other countries as well) is losing their blessings from the Almighty God because they have chosen to reject him and push him out from governing here.

Just because you're enjoying life and you are quite comfortable with turning your back on people who need food in spite of the fact that they smoke, it doesn't mean that everyone else in this nation is better off than they might be if they lived in Sweden, for instance.

If you're saying God gives us free will and then you tell us that bad things happen to us "... because of his starting to remove his blessings" you are cherry picking what you want to believe from the Bible and you're probably enhancing and embellishing as you go along to suit your beliefs on a daily basis. Yeah, I know, you'll come back at me with more arguments that you didn't say (God said them.) Color me unimpressed and turned completely off.

God allows life to go on as it would. People get ill, people die, they get the flu. They also sometimes suffer the consequences for their actions. For instance the economic colapse is due to the greed of others, AIDS is due to homosexual sinful acts, STDs come from sexual immorality, I got burnt cause I stuck my hand in a fire, whatever, etc. And, life happens. God will intervene if people pray for a situation and he will answer the prayers of those who ask of him according to his will. But if a group or a Nation of people agree to shut God out through their actions, laws, etc., He will remove his blessings. He does this so that people will once again see their need for him. When my children disrespect me and tell me they don't want me around, I give them what they want. I discipline their disrespect to me by taking away my help and allowances and privileges I once gave them. I show them their need for me. I am wiser and more able to figure things out than they are. Children don't understand their parents love for them. Especially teenagers. They look at it as if parents just want to 'rule' them. When in fact, they just have their kids best interest in mind. This is how God views us. Teenagers who don't see the whole picture because they haven't matured. Teenagers who think they are smarter than their parents and have all the answers. We are not smarter than God. He knows what's best for us.

[BJean 16]

patty, I have a suggestion. I noticed that you have started a thread with a topic of religion. It is flourishing. Why don't you keep your sermons for that thread? Then when any of us get a fond yearning to read a patty sermon, or even to argue against its' merits, we can go there and get a good dose of it. As it is, you seem to be polluting every thread on rants and raves.