who supports right to choose

[Carrie_C 9]

I believe one of the 10 commandments is "Thou shall not KILL"......

[KartMan 58]

No doubt about it kartman, you're a bigger man than I am.

Well, I'm not a man and I may outweigh you, but you are far more concilliatory and generous than I have found myself being here on this thread. Normally I am a peacemaker.

That seems to have gone by the wayside on a couple of threads at LBT on which I've been participating. I know it is stupid to behave that way. I know it is conduct not becoming someone who believes in love and peace and respect for others. So if anyone should apologize, it is undoubtedly me. You weren't that insulting, really.

I've apologized several times in the past for offending people here on this thread. My beliefs and feelings run very deep on this topic. And then to throw religion in the mix is almost more than I can bear when it is used in the way that it has been.

It has been used in the same way that our former president and his consults used it. I've seen what it has done and continues to do to our country. It is disappointing at the very least and infuriating beyond belief.

For our country to wind up in some kind of civil war over the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights versus the evangelical movement is just exactly what our founders thought they guarded against when they formulated the basis of our entire system of government.

For a few people to take the law into their own hands and say that they are doing it because they have been directed by God, is baffling and mind blowing. Some of the things patty has said here are kind of like a microcosm of the divisive climate currently existing in this country. So if I have overreacted, that is why. I am seriously worried about our country. I am seriously concerned that some of the "born again" Christians are becoming America's very own home-grown terrorists who want to destroy the rest of us. If not literally, at least figuratively.

That's the way I see it. This is how it feels today in the United States for a person who believes deeply in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and who believes that whether we are good people or not has a direct bearing on whether we are invited to heaven by God.

Luckily I have never had to deal with the issue of abortion directly or even with a close family member in that situation. Even though I haven’t been there, I know the last thing a woman needs is people screaming at her that she is a murderer. I am so committed to the belief that it is a deeply personal thing and that no other person (or the government) has a right to interfere with it.

I do think that were on the edge of danger a few years ago of leaning too far to the right and that fundamentalism was gaining too much ground. But I think we have finally turned the corner and are heading in the right direction. It is not won yet though and we have to keep making sure the truth is heard lest the voices like Patty’s and the rest gain a foothold again. It is especially true in difficult economic times like these that we have to be vigilant. Extremism tends to breed when times are tough.

Bjean, keep up the good fight and know that you are right.

[BJean 16]

When speaking of capital punishment, your lighthouse analogy is absurd.

We would all be relieved and pleased if only it were true.

And if you're speaking of "an eye for an eye" as God's condoning capital punishment, that doesn't hold Water. If someone plucks your eye out, maybe it's fair for you to pluck out his. But if someone plucks the guy's eye out down the street, it doesn't give you the power to go exact revenge. Which is what we are doing when we kill people who have killed. We aren't deterring murder. We're exacting revenge.

[BJean 16]

kartman I haven't had an abortion or had anyone in my family who has. However I have been touched by it through various friends and acquaintances over the years. Hearing their stories, empathizing with their painful situations, witnessing the discrimination they've endured, has given me the strength to stand up against those who wish to control women and take away their reproductive rights.

I believe it is extremely important not only for women, but also for the rights of all Americans. We have been Constitutionally guaranteed the right to our own bodies. We should never give the government the power to make these kinds of decisions for any of us.

Your support means a great deal to me because you sound like a very intelligent man and a keen thinker. Your message gives me hope. Thank you so much.

[KartMan 58]

Dude, if I were 6'1", I'd be more than half-way to my goal too. Congratulations on your LB success, kartman! I'm afraid I'm a little stalled. I sure haven't given up though. And people like you continue to inspire me to work harder.

At the risk of sounding sexist, I think being a guy helps. We seem to be a little luckier in the weight department than you ladies. It tends to be focused in our guts and seems to come off easier when we start to work on it. I’m sure not having that monthly visitor helps us a little too:wink:.

[KartMan 58]

I totally agree with you. It seems that patty takes over every thread and turns EVERYTHING into a religious debate. I don't agree with her views at all. She gives all christians a bad name. So how about we all put her on ignore and then we will all get along just fine?!! :ihih:

I can’t put her on ignore. She has opinions that are shared by others and there are still others that may be swayed by what she has to say. I personally feel obliged to challenge her on these issues because I find them to be wrong on so many levels. I think it would be a tragedy if Patty saying what she says convinces even one person that taking away a woman’s right to choose, further discriminating against gays, or forcing religion into schools is ok.

[BJean 16]

Hey, not sexist at all - realistic, eh. That monthly visitor is a beeotch. Hormones can seriously suck when it comes to shedding the lbs. especially since we women are made to have lots of fat to sustain us when there's a famine. We have to feed the babies, you know.

You guys on the other hand, have to slay the dragons and so you have all the calorie-burning muscle that we lack.

It always bugs me when my DH and I compete for losing the most weight over a given period of time and he can lose lbs. whilst eating 2500 calories a day and I have to cut mine somewhere below 1200. Let's face it, all the good stuff has a minimum of 3000 calories per bite!

[BJean 16]

"I can’t put her on ignore. She has opinions that are shared by others and there are still others that may be swayed by what she has to say. I personally feel obliged to challenge her on these issues because I find them to be wrong on so many levels. I think it would be a tragedy if Patty saying what she says convinces even one person that taking away a woman’s right to choose, further discriminating against gays, or forcing religion into schools is ok."

kartman, you took the words right out of my mouth on this!

[KartMan 58]

bjean:Then we are crazy as a country. We've committed murder and horrible atrocities in Iraq and elsewhere. We commit murder when we kill convicts who have been convicted of crimes.

War is not considered murder. It is killing. There is a diffence. Killing in self defense is allowed by God. If someone threatens you, you are allowed to defend yourself. This is what is done in war. Someone decides to take over your property, and you defend it. Someone decides to take away your freedoms, and you defend them. There is no sin in war.

Convicts who have committed crimes need to be killed. They are not murdered. There is a difference. If a person commits murder, his life should end as well. God allows this form of punishment for that sort of crime.

How was the “killing” we did in Iraq self defense? It was known at the time of the invasion and has been proven outright since then that Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. So if we were not defending ourselves and we killed thousands of Iraqis how is not murder?

[pattygreen 5]

I believe one of the 10 commandments is "Thou shall not KILL"......

It's "Thou shalt not murder."

[KartMan 58]

Besides the fact that God approves capitol punishment, it is also a deterent to crime.

The death penalty is a warning, just like a lighthouse throwing its beams out to sea. We hear about shipwrecks, but we do not hear about the ships the lighthouse guides safely on their way. We do not have proof of the number of ships it saves, but we do not tear the lighthouse down."(1)

If capital punishment is even a potential deterrent, that is a significant enough social reason to implement it.

I grew up around some pretty unsavory folks. Some of them went on to commit murder. I happen to know that they were not deterred from their crimes by the threat of Capital Punishment. They don’t even believe they will be caught, let alone put to death, so it’s not a deterrent at all. Besides, it is just flat out wrong for society to kill its citizens. Rehabilitate them, or lock them in a cell for life, but don’t perpetuate the injustice by taking their life in vengeance. If for no other reason, our courts get it wrong far too often. It seems that almost every week they are finding some poor sap on death row that was completely innocent. If we put to death even one person by mistake, then that is one too many.

[rodriguezequal 3]

bjean:Then we are crazy as a country. We've committed murder and horrible atrocities in Iraq and elsewhere. We commit murder when we kill convicts who have been convicted of crimes.

How was the “killing” we did in Iraq self defense? It was known at the time of the invasion and has been proven outright since then that Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. So if we were not defending ourselves and we killed thousands of Iraqis how is not murder?

In defense of my husband and the other soldiers he fought with...there are many many rules for our soldiers over there...they are not shotting before being threatened or attacked in some way...in fact if they get shot at the have about 5-10 minutes to find the shooter if he runs...if they cannot find him in their time frame they cannot shot him...

[rodriguezequal 3]

Did you mean "faith in all the non christians"? You know, the "good" people?

Because there are plenty of good christians. Those like the abortion doctor killer should NOT be considered part of Christ's family. He willfully committed a horrible crime of murder and is not held in high esteem by christians! I know you "LOVE" to continue to include people like him among us christian believers, but would it be fair for me to say that every non believer in Christ that committed a murder or an atrocious crime is one of yours? They think like you do? No, that wouldn't be fair, would it. So drop it, bjean! You know full well that ANY person, christian or not, that commits murder in ANYBODYS name is sick and has mental/emotional problems and is not a representative of a group by which they affirm themselves!

I just want to say that I am not a christian, but I am a damn good person!!!

[rodriguezequal 3]

God knows the past, present and future. He is all knowing.In the human realm on earth we are bound by 'time', in the spiritual realm, there is no time.

Then you have no free will...you don't make the choices that you come across...which means that God planned what happened to me and knew that I would have an abortion...it was part of his plan

[pattygreen 5]

patty: "It is your opinion of me that says I feel I am 'superior', not anything I said. BTW God doesn't choose who goes to heaven and who doesn't. He leaves that up to each individual."

Yes, it is everything you said that makes me think that you feel religiously superior to those who do not share your beliefs. I'm not making it up. You need to take responbility for your words.

You're right. It makes YOU THINK... That doesn't make what you think right. YOU may feel that I think I am superior to others, but that's not what I think.

And although you say that God chooses who goes to heaven and who doesn't, you have made it perfectly clear that YOU are the one who decides what God's prerequisites are for doing the choosing. So yeah, he chooses, just so long as we believe what YOU believe. That is bull and you know it. I never said that God chooses, I said that every person makes their own choice about if they want to go to heaven or not.

I guess it all boils down to if you believe that the bible is God's guidebook to mankind or not. If you do, then you will believe what he says in there. If not, then live as you choose, and we'll all see when our lives are over. What else can I say?

Edited June 10, 2009 by pattygreen