who supports right to choose

[rodriguezequal 3]

That was not an apology whether you thought it was or not! Besides why would you apologize to a murderer? Especially one that has no remorse because I have murdered no one!

[rodriguezequal 3]

Yes, he does. Before you were even born he knew you and he knew what your choices would be.

That's a bunch of crap. How can he know what we haven't chosen. If he doesn't control free will then he doesn't know what will happen to us and how we will respond to it...that is ridiculous!!!

[rodriguezequal 3]

Yes, he does. Before you were even born he knew you and he knew what your choices would be.

Then he created us with the choices he wanted...he controls our choices...we have no free will in this case...how can you not understand that

[Lydiafree 0]

God controls everything but mans free will to choose whom he will serve. Would you want robots or puppets for children who are programmed to love you and obey you? This is why he gives us free will.

Which, of course, is just more nonsense, since he also planned everything and knows what will happen.

What does it matter if we have "free will" if we have no ability to make a choice that he didn't plan for and didn't know we would chose.

This is nonsense, Ms. Green. Silly, useless nonsense.

[Lydiafree 0]

I am sorry about calling you a murderer. It was directed in general for all women who kill their unborn babies. Sorry, but this is what I feel they are doing when they abort. Whether they think they are or not.

If you have children and are raising them to buy into this delusion of yours, you are committing unpardonable child abuse. Sorry, but that is what I feel you are doing. Whether you think you are or not.

(not quite as fun on the receiving end, is it.)

[BJean 16]

patty: "Do you see how you over exagerate and dramatize what I say?"

No patty it isn't that I over exaggerate or dramatize what you say, it is that when your rant comes back to bite you, you either deny that you meant it that way or that it isn't your word but it's God's word and that you aren't responsible for it in any case.

When people commit murder and claim that it is in the name of God or Allah, that doesn't make them crazy.

The man who killed Dr. Tiller hasn't been thought of as crazy. Some of the anti-choice movement have been delirously happy that Dr. Tiller was murdered and that his wife has decided to close his clinic. Many of those people are "born again" Christians. They are not all crazy, unless you are saying that you have to be crazy to believe in the "born again" exclusionary, single-minded, holier than thou philosophy.

patty: "Salvation is NOT about the good or bad things we do. It has nothing to do with whether you were a good person or not."

And those very words give "born agains" the right to commit any sin that they decide is pleasing to God, and it is is perfectfly acceptable in their eyes.

I am sorry for you that you are living the way you are. I know why some of you pray so loud and long every night. It is to drown out your subconscious voice that is trying to tell you how wrong your bad deeds are - the things that you commit here on earth against other human beings and then declare that it is in the name of God.

[Carrie_C 9]

What specifically do you consider to be "christian bashing" here on this thread? Is it criticism of the silliness and nonsense inherent in religion (ALL of them), or is it specific to the people who believe in it?

I ask because "you're bashing christians" is something a vocal atheist will hear quite often, despite their merely criticizing the belief system. This is because religious people seem to view their belief system as a deeply personal thing. I haven't seen anyone actually bashing christians themselves, so I might have missed what you're referring to.

I will always have an issue with the absurd nonsense people believe in. This does not mean I think the people themselves are unintelligent, etc. It means I think what they believe in is.

That said, this: "But please try to understand, the way patty is is NOT the way true christians act" is the No True Scotsman Fallacy. Her interpretation of the confusing garbled nonsense that is religion is different from others, surely, but no less "true" than any others.

Calling someone's beliefs "absurd nonsense" and "silliness" is not right to me. I don't believe in how athiests or jews or catholics believe, but I have respect for them, and I would never call their beliefs (or nonbelief's) absurd nonsense or silly. I believe that is crossing the line.

[Carrie_C 9]

I do not mean to bash all christians...just the ones that are like Patty...

Well, I think patty is an extremist. We aren't all like that I swear!

[BJean 16]

But Carrie we're having a debate here. Patty has turned it into a debate about religious beliefs.

In the process of defending our beliefs we find ourselves "bashing" those who do not share them. If someone of the Catholic or Jewish faith or if an atheist were confronting you and telling you that only they have the answers and that you are going to hell if you don't agree with them, it incites anger and bashing.

She certainly does not speak for all Christians. That is for sure. But if she doesn't want to be bashed, she shouldn't make it so personal.

[KartMan 58]

Well bless you Patty, you have made me speechless. I don’t even know how to respond to that other than to say it is the biggest bunch of bull I’ve ever heard.

Patty,

I want to apologize for the tone of my last comment. First let me say that I am extremely skeptical of religion and faith, not just yours but all of them so my criticism is aimed at all of them not just yours. Second I will do everything in my power to make the point that religion should be a personal thing and has absolutely no place in public policy.

Having said that, I totally respect the fact that you believe in what you believe in. Just as much as I will fervently fight to keep yours and any religion out of our government, I would fight and die for your absolute right to believe as you do. The last thing I want to do is ridicule someone for their beliefs. Just because I do not believe what you believe I have no right to make fun of it, I’m sorry if it came across that I way. I will continue to debate you on what our government should and should not do, issues of morality, and even the merits and nuances of religion and faith (and I’m sure these debates will be spirited). I will however try my best to draw the line at making insensitive comments about your personal beliefs.

Kartman

[KartMan 58]

Yes patty, it is definitely "hard teaching" and a very hard lesson that some of us fail to or refuse to embrace. Do you have the nerve to try to understand why? Or is it enough for you to just write us all off as devil worshippers who are bringing us closer to the second coming? A very few of the reasons that billions of people who do not believe in a person having to be "born again" the way you define it, in order to get into heaven, fall within some of the lines below.

"Born agains" have taught us that they believe that they are above the law because they're doing God's will. They believe that people like Dr. Tiller must be stopped, even if it means murdering him in cold blood in his church.

"Born agains" have taught us that they are the judges and jury here on earth and that they are equipped to do it because they are uniquely qualified by having been "born again" and are simply following the teachings of the Bible and they are doing God's will. Timothy McVeigh was a "born again" who believed he was carrying out God's will.

"Born agains' have taught us that it is the right thing to do to leave a woman to die if she finds that she's experiencing a pregnancy gone wrong, rather than allowing her to have a physically needed late term abortion.

Billions of people do not believe in the "born again" version of religion because billions have never even heard the term. How unjust are your "born again" teachings if they would allow billions of people to go to hell just because they have not heard of it or been given the chance to choose be "born again"? And what of all those people who were born and died before the concept of being "born again" the way you teach it, was even thought up?

And what about all the other denominations of Christians? "Born agains" have decided that because other Christians don't require or believe in the "born again" philosophy, even though they believe in God and the Bible and lead Christian lives, those Christians are going to hell because they haven't been "born again"? AND they are devil worshippers?

Can you possibly understand that the exclusionary teachings of the "born agains" are similar to some of the teachings of the Muslim terrorists who fight against us? And if you can understand that, can you understand why perfectly intelligent, well-educated, sane, rational people do not believe that being "born again" is the unique qualification that God has put forth that allows a person to enter into his kingdom or that it makes any more sense than what Allah has promised certain extremist Muslims?

As for me, I can't believe in a religion that teaches that really good people are going to hell because they havent been "born again" the way you teach it. And I can't believe that some really bad people aren't going to hell, just because they claim to be "born again."

I challenge you to open your heart to other beliefs and philosophies instead of being so anti-people. Because it seems obvious that what you're teaching is difficult to grasp unless you are a fully brainwashed sheep, drinking the kool-aid.

Bjean, you are so well spoken. I really appreciate reading your posts.

[BJean 16]

No doubt about it kartman, you're a bigger man than I am.

Well, I'm not a man and I may outweigh you, but you are far more concilliatory and generous than I have found myself being here on this thread. Normally I am a peacemaker.

That seems to have gone by the wayside on a couple of threads at LBT on which I've been participating. I know it is stupid to behave that way. I know it is conduct not becoming someone who believes in love and peace and respect for others. So if anyone should apologize, it is undoubtedly me. You weren't that insulting, really.

I've apologized several times in the past for offending people here on this thread. My beliefs and feelings run very deep on this topic. And then to throw religion in the mix is almost more than I can bear when it is used in the way that it has been.

It has been used in the same way that our former president and his consults used it. I've seen what it has done and continues to do to our country. It is disappointing at the very least and infuriating beyond belief.

For our country to wind up in some kind of civil war over the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights versus the evangelical movement is just exactly what our founders thought they guarded against when they formulated the basis of our entire system of government.

For a few people to take the law into their own hands and say that they are doing it because they have been directed by God, is baffling and mind blowing. Some of the things patty has said here are kind of like a microcosm of the divisive climate currently existing in this country. So if I have overreacted, that is why. I am seriously worried about our country. I am seriously concerned that some of the "born again" Christians are becoming America's very own home-grown terrorists who want to destroy the rest of us. If not literally, at least figuratively.

That's the way I see it. This is how it feels today in the United States for a person who believes deeply in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and who believes that whether we are good people or not has a direct bearing on whether we are invited to heaven by God.

[BJean 16]

Oh. Now that I've just posted that to you kartman, I read your latest. You are awesome. Thank you so much. I am so heartened to read your posts and those of rodriguez, Lydia and Carrie. It gives me faith in the good people of this country. Faith that we will prevail and that a climate of unity can be restored in this country.

(For the record, I like to read your posts a whole lot better than my own!)

[BJean 16]

Dude, if I were 6'1", I'd be more than half-way to my goal too. Congratulations on your LB success, kartman! I'm afraid I'm a little stalled. I sure haven't given up though. And people like you continue to inspire me to work harder.

[pattygreen 5]

That's a bunch of crap. How can he know what we haven't chosen. If he doesn't control free will then he doesn't know what will happen to us and how we will respond to it...that is ridiculous!!!

God knows the past, present and future. He is all knowing.In the human realm on earth we are bound by 'time', in the spiritual realm, there is no time.