who supports right to choose

[gadgetlady 4]

Sorry. Not going to debate about words used anymore. Happy to discuss the REAL issue at hand, that of whether it should be acceptable to stop a beating heart or not.

[anonemouse 1]

Happy to discuss the REAL issue at hand, that of whether it should be acceptable to stop a beating heart or not.

Does that heart beat when it is separated from its incubator? If not, then yes. If it does, then no. If a being cannot be separated from another, it is NOT a separate being.

[marjon9 6]

Sorry. Not going to debate about words used anymore. Happy to discuss the REAL issue at hand, that of whether it should be acceptable to stop a beating heart or not.

Why are you not willing to answer my question? You have stated repeatedly that you are always willing to answer any question that you are asked. What are you afraid of on this one? We've all been involved in this debate for quite some time. There is a difference of opinion here about what the "REAL" issue is. For me, the "REAL" issue is the question I asked you. Why are you afraid to answer my question? If the answer is no, it's no. Why not have the courage of your convictions? Why refuse to answer?

[396power 2]

396- why don't you carry those babies for your friends for nine months, go through delivery, and raise them and handle all the attendant problems for the next 20 years of your life? If you think that it only has to do with them being "inconvenienced" you just have no clue.

By the way, that's a real scientific study you did on the reasons why women get abortions. You haven't even spoken with the women you mentioned, so how in the world can you believe you fully understand their situations, much less the majority of other women's situations?

Well because I am very close to these people, and when you are close you hear things and see how people are. And as far as not talking to them I'm not the monster you try to make me out to be some of these guys are family and they know how I feel abot abortion And if they knew that I know they had one they might be very uncomfortable around me. And I can't just talk to them about it they would think I was trying to condem them ,which is not what I'm doing. Just because I belive it is wrong and don't think that it is okay to do. Does not mean that I don't understand. And also so many times we Christians get ridiculed for speaking up about somthing. And then some one will try to misqoute scripture, Like don't judge least you be judged. You think that we are judging them,no I'm not. Here is somthing you should read Befor you start telling me I'm judging.

When Jesus said, "Do not judge, and you will not be judged," was He implying that we should regard everyone's viewpoint equally?

Based on Jesus' own actions, we can be sure He didn't mean we should ignore and tolerate evil. Jesus wasn't passively tolerant toward people who were doing evil things and promoting evil values. He often made judgments regarding their actions and confronted them ( Matthew 21:13; 23:13-36 ; John 6:70-71; 8:39-47 ).

[gadgetlady 4]

What the heck have I refused to answer? All I've said is I'm not going to debate the selection of words anymore, and I'm not going to respond when someone is hostile or calls me hostile.

[green 6]

I really appreciated Fuel Man's comments on this issue. It seems to me that the Pro-life lobby is keen to stop abortions but not so interested in investing in the following 20 years after those children are born. Dropping an unwanted infant off for adoption is not always the answer. Some babies are more marketable, more desirable than others. What happens to the duds, eh? For that matter what will happen to all the unwanted babies, even the good ones, once the adoption market is flooded with these children? I guess the orphanages will come back.

Generally speaking, it seems to me that the Pro-life lobby is also the far right lobby and these are the folks who are unhappy to see a rise in taxes in order to ensure that the poor and ill-educated will have access to better schools, better health care - something which, by the way, can be done if Americans would agree to get rid of the businessmen which run the health insurance plans and go for universal health care.

It is you right to lifers who claim that there are huge numbers of pre-borns being slaughtered every year. Ask yourselves if you are prepared to pony up the cash to pay for these unwanted individuals; are you willing to pay for the schools, the health care, and the judicial/penal system in case these individuals fall between the cracks of society? Or is it indeed the facile crap of, well, "I donate to these pro-life societies which help pregnant girls....? We help them have their babies........! We are saving lives." And then what? What are you going to be doing when that baby is 3, 5, 10 or 15 years old?

And if your statistics are correct there are a huge number of these pre-borns for whom you will be both morally and financially (via taxes) responsible if you manage to repeal the legislation allowing women the freedom of choice.

And Canada will be harvesting a whole lot of Yanqui tourist dollars for it is unlikely that Canada will ever repeal its pro-choice legislation. My advice to any young sexually active woman will then be to use birth control, and make sure that you have a valid passport just in case, eh.

[BJean 16]

396: I did not accuse you of judging people. Although from your post about judging people, quoting the Bible, etc., it seems that maybe you really are judging those friends of yours. Otherwise why mount a defense when no one was attacking you about it? I don't wonder that they wouldn't want to discuss something as important and personal as abortion with you if they already know you're going to judge them in a negative way. Afterall, they're your beliefs, your convictions, so very much more important than your friends or their needs.

Since you brought up the Bible, do you think that Jesus would make negative comments about his friends if they had had an abortion? He might not recommend an abortion to a friend in trouble, but I doubt seriously if he would not be totally loving and supportive of a woman in trouble, even after she had brutally murdered her human being (clump of cells.)

[marjon9 6]

What the heck have I refused to answer? All I've said is I'm not going to debate the selection of words anymore, and I'm not going to respond when someone is hostile or calls me hostile.

I am not debating about a selection of words. I am asking you a question that goes to the heart of this debate as far as I'm concerned. I'm not calling you names and I'm not relating to you in a hostile manner. I'm asking you a straightforward, simple question. The question "the hecK" you have refused to answer is this one:

At this moment I say to you that I respect you and I believe that you have some arguments and points of view that deserve respect. I think you are a reasonable, thoughtful, compassionate person. I disagree with your arguments, but I respect them.

Are you willing to say the same?

That's a very simple question. Essentially it involves nothing more than a yes or no answer. Why not just answer it?

[BJean 16]

Hmmm, Mark, I hear crickets.

[BJean 16]

Good post, Green!

[gadgetlady 4]

I am not debating about a selection of words. I am asking you a question that goes to the heart of this debate as far as I'm concerned. I'm not calling you names and I'm not relating to you in a hostile manner. I'm asking you a straightforward, simple question. The question "the hecK" you have refused to answer is this one:

At this moment I say to you that I respect you and I believe that you have some arguments and points of view that deserve respect. I think you are a reasonable, thoughtful, compassionate person. I disagree with your arguments, but I respect them.

Are you willing to say the same?

That's a very simple question. Essentially it involves nothing more than a yes or no answer. Why not just answer it?

I've already answered you and you know it. The answer is no. I do not respect your position on this matter. I've explained why I don't. It doesn't mean I don't think you're reasonable, thoughtful, or compassionate, or that I don't respect your opinions on other matters. It doesn't mean I don't respect YOU. It doesn't mean I don't respect your right to have an opinion. It means I don't respect the opinion itself.

But let me ask you a question? Why do you care? What would it matter if I said yes? Yes or no, we still disagree. Why does the fact that I don't respect an opinion that I consider to be sanctioning the taking of a human life matter one way or another?

And as to your crickets, BJean, I do have a life and other things to do. I'm sorry I can't always respond at the snap of a fingers like you'd like me to.

[anonemouse 1]

But let me ask you a question? Why do you care? What would it matter if I said yes? Yes or no, we still disagree. Why does the fact that I don't respect an opinion that I consider to be sanctioning the taking of a human life matter one way or another?

Because it shows that it is less than a waste of time to debate with you. You don't have the same level of respect for us as we have for you. You don't have to LIKE or AGREE with an opinion to RESPECT it. If you respect our opinions, you acknowledge that we have logical (at least to us) reasons for believing the way we do. You may not agree with them or think that they're right, but we deserve to be treated with respect.

[green 6]

Good post, Green!

Thanks, grrl. (Green smiling, eh.)

[marjon9 6]

I've already answered you and you know it. The answer is no. I do not respect your position on this matter. I've explained why I don't. It doesn't mean I don't think you're reasonable, thoughtful, or compassionate, or that I don't respect your opinions on other matters. It doesn't mean I don't respect YOU. It doesn't mean I don't respect your right to have an opinion. It means I don't respect the opinion itself.

But let me ask you a question? Why do you care? What would it matter if I said yes? Yes or no, we still disagree. Why does the fact that I don't respect an opinion that I consider to be sanctioning the taking of a human life matter one way or another?

And as to your crickets, BJean, I do have a life and other things to do. I'm sorry I can't always respond at the snap of a fingers like you'd like me to.

The reason it matters to me is that I feel that your answer to this question provides insight into the chances for ultimate victory of the pro-choice movement. You have the view that the pro-choice arguments are not the product of thoughtful, compassionate thinking, and not worthy of respect. That tells me that your views are so far out of the mainstream that you can't possibly win this debate in the long term.

And it also tells me that your arguments will never change the minds of people who disagree with you. You can't win a debate with opponents while you are telling them at the same time that you do not respect their views. It's just never going to happen.

Now, if you had said that you do respect the views of the pro-choice movement, and understand that thoughtful and compassionate people can hold such views, that would have told me that I might actually need to be worried about you. That would have told me that you might actually possess the insight necessary to win the argument in the long term.

So, I hope that answers your question.

[gadgetlady 4]

Because it shows that it is less than a waste of time to debate with you. You don't have the same level of respect for us as we have for you. You don't have to LIKE or AGREE with an opinion to RESPECT it. If you respect our opinions, you acknowledge that we have logical (at least to us) reasons for believing the way we do. You may not agree with them or think that they're right, but we deserve to be treated with respect.

Why is it a waste of time to debate with someone who doesn't respect one particular position? Are my questions less valid, my arguments less legitimate? Why does how I feel about your position mean I don't have something worthy to say? And just because I don't respect this particular position, does that mean I don't treat the people who hold it with respect? Can you show me where I haven't?

If someone says they don't respect my position, frankly I could care less. That's about them, not about me. It doesn't mean I won't try to defend my position and it doesn't mean I'll stop talking to them about it if they want to discuss the matter. Perhaps I might even bring them to a place where they respect my opinion.