who supports right to choose

[gadgetlady 4]

gaadget you demonize anyone who doesn't support your views on this topic.

You are so full of rage that you don't have room to open your heart and mind to anything but the venom you spew toward anyone who holds an opposing view about abortion.

Right back atcha. I've seen an incredible amount of rage and venom coming from you.

My whole point in this argument is that this is not an issue that should be legislated. It is a medical issue between a woman and her doctor.

Then why do you think it's not OK for a mother to have a late-term abortion just because she doesn't want to be pregnant anymore (barring a medical reason)?

The fact that you are surprised (are you really?) that I find the case that you cited to be sad and unfortunate just shows how clueless you are.

I REALLY am surprised that you cited it to be tragic and wrong (not sad and unfortunate -- that's a different description entirely). I truly would like to hear your reasoning because I don't get it.

[gadgetlady 4]

What good would it do if we told you why we think it was a bad situation, you still wouldn't agree and you would just continue to argue.

Well, you can't really know that until you explain your reasoning, can you? I truly, truly don't understand the reasoning. The result of the abortion procedure, even though it was botched, was the same. So what's the problem?

[gadgetlady 4]

I don't mind the arguments. I mind the sarcastic insults and the extremely bigoted way information is manipulated and skewed by anti-choice people. They use hate and fear and accusations to try to shame people into supporting their cause. Their behavior and the "information" they distribute is very ugly and it not representative of the way most women feel in this country. Thank God!

There's that hate and venom again. "Anti-choice". "Bigoted". "Manipulated". "Skewed." "Hate." "Fear". "Accusations". "Shame". "Ugly".

Yup, everything you say is full of love.

[gadgetlady 4]

And Carrie you are absolutely right. How many times do we have to go through this exercise on this thread?

Normal people can't discuss the issue without some foaming at the mouth extremists jumping in. Then right away the radical, sarcastic diatribe with grisly photos and links to right wing rhetoric that they are so fond of posting, ensues.

As my sister used to say it'd gag a maggot.

Oh - here's more! "Foaming at the mouth". "Extremists". "Radical". "Sarcastic". "Diatribe". "Grisly photos". "Right wing rhetoric". Oh -- and lest we leave out -- "maggot".

Do you really think what you post isn't abortion rhetoric with a good dose of hate-speak thrown in?

[BJean 16]

The biggest difference between you and me is that you think it is cool to call someone out in a very personal way. I think that is inappropriate in a civil discussion or even a lively debate.

You've told me before that you think that I am merely being passive aggressive. Which explains a lot.

You say that you don't understand why I might find a particular situation tragic and wrong or sad and unfortunate, and I don't doubt that. (Btw, something can be all of those things at the same time.) I believe that is because anti-choice people have only one train of thought and everything and everyone is colored by their belief that it is their duty to police pregnant women.

The ony reason you brought up that case is that it gives you an opportunity to emphasize sarcastically, that an abortion was done and therefore anyone who is pro-choice shouldn't have a problem with it. You want the opportunity to do the lovely things that I was speaking to in my earlier post. You're not interested in having a civil discussion that is polite and not personal.

And once again, thanks. I always appreciate it when you quote me and give my words the opportunity to be read again. It's cool. And I'm not being sarcastic. I really appreciate it.

[Carrie_C 9]

Well, you can't really know that until you explain your reasoning, can you? I truly, truly don't understand the reasoning. The result of the abortion procedure, even though it was botched, was the same. So what's the problem?

Yes, I do know what you will say, because I have been through this with you before. Will anything I say about the reasoning really change your mind on the issue? I didn't think so.

[gadgetlady 4]

I don't know if you're fooling yourself or just trying to fool everyone else.

The biggest difference between you and me is that you think it is cool to call someone out in a very personal way. I think that is inappropriate in a civil discussion or even a lively debate.

So all those words you used above were a civil discussion, rhetoric-free, and not calling someone out in a personal way?

Can you show me where I've called someone out in a personal way without provocation (in other words, not in response to being called a frothing-at-the-mouth bigot who wants to control women)?

You say that you don't understand why I might find a particular situation tragic and wrong or sad and unfortunate, and I don't doubt that. (Btw, something can be all of those things at the same time.)

You did doubt it, or at least you implied earlier that you did. And yes, something can be all of those things at the same time, but all of those things are different things. There's a big difference between wrong and sad. I'd like to know why you think the situation was tragic and why it was wrong (the words you used the first time around).

The ony reason you brought up that case is that it gives you an opportunity to emphasize sarcastically, that an abortion was done and therefore anyone who is pro-choice shouldn't have a problem with it.

Not really. The reason I brought it up was because it demonstrates the duality of the belief system that it's acceptable to kill a child in utero but not acceptable to kill that exact same child ex-utero, even though it's the exact same child at the exact same developmental age.

I really want to hear your or anyone else's explanation as to why this situation is different from any other late-term abortion that happens every day in this country. Why you think it's tragic, wrong, criminal, and all of the other words that have been used.

And yet, thus far, no one will answer me. I believe I know why (I could be wrong and am happy to be proved wrong). I believe the reason is you (and by saying "you" here I mean the generic you -- those who support abortion and simultaneously decry this situation) can't put into words what the ethical and moral difference is between what happened and what "should" have happened had the abortion gone "right" or "as planned". I believe that you (generic) believe that if you (generic) attempt to put that into words, you (generic) will not do a very good job (or perhaps the reason you [generic] won't put it into words is because you [generic] can't come up with the words). I believe that you (generic) fear that I will have a compelling opposite point of view and you (generic) won't be able to defend your (generic) position. So you (generic) tell me you (generic) won't answer because you (generic) know I'll disagree with you (generic). Or you (generic) just choose not to answer. Interesting. Isn't that what this entire thread has been about? If you (generic) don't want to have a disagreement about abortion, I would suggest that you (generic) stop posting on this board (unless you [generic] only post when you [generic] believe you [generic] have the upper hand and are on the attack -- like when everyone here attacks pattygreen).

The lack of response tells me you're actually afraid of the answer. I'd love someone to prove me wrong. I am not and have never been afraid of answering questions and presenting my opinion on this subject -- even when I get attacked.

[gadgetlady 4]

Yes, I do know what you will say, because I have been through this with you before. Will anything I say about the reasoning really change your mind on the issue? I didn't think so.

Carrie, if you don't want to discuss the issue, why do you keep posting in this thread? Not that I'm trying to chase you off -- it's your right to do it -- I'm just wondering what the problem is.

I have had my pro-life views challenged here and elsewhere. I'm not afraid of the issues, and I'm not afraid of the responses by those in favor of abortion. I don't think I'll change my mind on the issue. Are you concerned you might change yours? Or are you just skittish about arguing about it?

We're going round and round about why we you don't want to argue about this issue, so instead we're arguing about arguing. Why not just get down to the brass tacks and talk about the real issue, since we're arguing anyway?

[rodriguezequal 3]

Testy! You're right. It is my opinion. Isn't that what we're supposed to give on this debate forum? You, too, have a right to give your opinion.

Whenever someone says it is what God has to say on an issue, tempers flare. I wonder why? Could it be that you know He's right and it angers you because you don't like anyone telling you how to live, even God?

The topic of God my flair things because believe it or no pg...not everyone belives in God...not everyone shares the same religious beliefs as you do...

[pattygreen 5]

The topic of God my flair things because believe it or no pg...not everyone belives in God...not everyone shares the same religious beliefs as you do...

So what. You don't have to believe in God to listen to what someone else might say about what they believe.

[rodriguezequal 3]

That's not what I am saying, but if someone repeatedly pushed into your face that God doesn't exists...or kept saying this happened because you believe in God, I think that it would upset you if someone constantly waved a religious belief in your face if it wasn't what you believed. We all have our own beliefs and this is not the place to argue about whos is right...make a religious discussion thread if it means that much for you to talk about it in every sentence...I don't feel like you're trying to get me to listen to what you believe in, I feel like you are trying to push your beliefs forcefully onto everyone else...believe what I believe or else kind of thing.

[Elisabethsew 50]

Religion has a lot to do with many peoples' opinions so don't let that cause the debate to deteriorate. Making it personal is hard not to do... at least for me.

[rodriguezequal 3]

I understand that religion is part of it but to keep posting "for those who have had abortions, God will forgive you if you admit you regret it or some crap...come on. Every time someone says something pg has to bring god into it and how god looks down upon this and that...the decision I made to have an abortion had nothing to do with my religion...I didn't choose what happened to me...it wasn't my fault and I am not going to ask "god" for forgiveness when I have done nothing wrong!

[plain 12]

I understand that religion is part of it but to keep posting "for those who have had abortions, God will forgive you if you admit you regret it or some crap...come on. Every time someone says something pg has to bring god into it and how god looks down upon this and that...the decision I made to have an abortion had nothing to do with my religion...I didn't choose what happened to me...it wasn't my fault and I am not going to ask "god" for forgiveness when I have done nothing wrong!

But yet you keep getting drawn back in.....If you are really as tired of reading her posts, why not just block / ignore her?

[rodriguezequal 3]

I did not realize you could block someone...thank you.