who supports right to choose

[gadgetlady 4]

(Our grandchildren had no such exposure to drugs - I'm sure you'll be assuming that they were from what you're reading into my posts.)

No, I didn't assume the worst about your DIL and son. I assumed they had medical complications that weren't related to drugs.

As for your remark, "it appears that you would have preferred they kill your grandchildren..." you should be ashamed to imply that.

It seemed like you didn't really care one way or the other.

[gadgetlady 4]

You're the one who is sounding insensitive. In fact, I'm so sensitive, I can no longer stand this exchange with you. You're grossing me out.

If you're so sensitive, why can't you even possibly admit that killing unborn babies after viability might be wrong? It amazes me that you can look at the facts and the reality of what abortion is, that you can know there are children out there (and grown adults) who have survived abortion attempts while in utero, that you can look at (or be so "sensitive" that you refuse to look at) the little body parts of dismembered babies, and yet still stand up and shout from the rooftops that abortion is just another medical procedure and it's perfectly OK.

[BJean 16]

Oh my goodness. You are so wrong on so many counts. I have to leave my computer but I want to say something - I have never, ever, ever, said that aborting babies after they are viable is right. I have never, ever, ever, said that seeing the horrendous photos that you provide links to doesn't bother me. It does bother me. And it does make me think less of you. I don't doubt that there are absolutely no lines that you will not cross in order to make people believe that women should never have the right to make their own choices when it comes to abortion.

Just because I do believe that women have that right and I do believe that we should not make abortion illegal, does not mean that I am an insensitive, uncaring person. In fact, I believe that it indicates that I am a VERY caring and sensitive person.

For someone (someone like you in fact, since you like for me to single you out) to say that all women should be forced to have unwanted babies, no matter what, I believe makes them (YOU) the insensitive one.

I know, you think that because you believe that a fertilized egg, a wee tiny bit of a piece of tissue has every right to life, regardless of the circumstances of the mother, the health of the tissue itself, or anything else, to me offers up proof that you the insensitive one.

[gadgetlady 4]

I have never, ever, ever, said that aborting babies after they are viable is right.

So you believe abortion should be illegal after viability?

I have never, ever, ever, said that seeing the horrendous photos that you provide links to doesn't bother me. It does bother me.

Which it should. But what I don't get is why it doesn't affect your philosophy that the unborn aren't human or deserving of life.

A I don't doubt that there are absolutely no lines that you will not cross in order to make people believe that women should never have the right to make their own choices when it comes to abortion.

Why is showing pictures and discussing the gruesomeness of dismembering unborn babies crossing a line? It's reality. It happens, every day.

For someone (someone like you in fact, since you like for me to single you out) to say that all women should be forced to have unwanted babies, no matter what, I believe makes them (YOU) the insensitive one.

I am not insensitive to the plight of mothers who don't want to be mothers. I am, however, steadfast in my belief that it is never OK to kill people to further our own personal wishes and desires. The reality is that these mothers have one choice only: a live baby or a dead baby.

[BJean 16]

Well there's at least one other choice that you always seem to conveniently ignore: that we can have a live mother or a dead mother. If a woman can't have a baby, and abortion is not an option, women have historically chosen to either try to privately terminate the pregnancy themselves and/or they commit suicide and kill themselves.

Saying that all they have to do is give the baby up for adoption if they don't want a baby is down playing the reality of what it means to become pregnant and birth a child. How any woman can give a child up for adoption is almost beyond my comprehension, but I won't put someone down who chooses it as an option.

[gadgetlady 4]

From Lifecall: Suicide Linked to Abortion (yes, a pro-life website, but the study was not from a pro-life organization):

Many believe that since induced abortion "relieves high stress in a woman's life", induced abortion would likely reduce suicide risk. The actual reality was was reported on December 7, 1996 in the very prestigious British Medical Journal.

Women who "terminated" a pregnancy had nearly a 500 percent greater suicide risk in the twelve months after compared to women who carried to term.

Finnish Study of Suicide Risk and Induced Abortion

[Abstract:]

Suicides after pregnancy in Finland, 1987-1994: register linkage study Mika Gissler, Elina Hemminki, Jouko Lonnqvist; British Medical Journal, 1996;313: 1431-1434

[Results from the abstract section]

Results- There were 73 suicides associated with pregnancy, representing 5.4% of all suicides in women in this age group [15-49 years]. The mean annual suicide rate was 11.3 per 100 000. The suicide rate associated with birth was significantly lower (5.9) and the rates associated with miscarriage (18.1) and induced abortion (34.7) were significantly higher than in the population. The risk associated with birth was higher among teenagers and that associated with abortion was increased in all age groups. Women who had committed a suicide tended to come from lower social classes and were more likely to be unmarried than other women who had had a completed pregnancy.

Conclusions- The increased risk of suicide after an induced abortion indicates either common risk factors for both or harmful affects of induced abortion on mental health.

[gadgetlady 4]

Dr. Bernard Nathanson, co-founder of NARAL and former abortionist -- who is now pro-life, says this (found at Confession Of An Ex-Abortionist By Dr. Bernard Nathanson, M.D., Obstetrician and Gynecologist (ObGyn), a clinical associate professor of obstetrics and gynecology, testing member American Bioethics Advisory Commission. Abortion providers, doctors and -- the whole thing is good reading, BTW)

We persuaded the media that the cause of permissive abortion was a liberal Enlightened, sophisticated one. Knowing that if a true poll were taken, we would be soundly defeated, we simply fabricated the results of fictional polls. We announced to the media that we had taken polls and that 60% of Americans were in favour of permissive abortion. This is the tactic of the self-fulfilling lie. Few people care to be in the minority. We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to crack the abortion law. Another myth we fed to the public through the media was that legalising abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since legalisation.

[BJean 16]

Your first post, if the stats were correct, essentially backs up my point. Thanks.

Your second post is laughable - at best.

[gadgetlady 4]

Your first post, if the stats were correct, essentially backs up my point. Thanks.

Really? Did you read it carefully?

Women who "terminated" a pregnancy had nearly a 500 percent greater suicide risk in the twelve months after compared to women who carried to term.

and

Conclusions- The increased risk of suicide after an induced abortion indicates either common risk factors for both or harmful affects of induced abortion on mental health.

Your second post is laughable - at best.

Yeah, because Bernard Nathanson was only credible when he was pro-abortion. As soon as he stopped performing abortions and became pro-life, he lost all credibility.

Edited April 29, 2008 by gadgetlady

[BJean 16]

Did you read AND understand what you posted?

The conclusion can just as easily read: women who have mental health problems are more prone to seek abortions. There is no proof that abortion causes women to become suicidal and it is just as plausible that women who were mentally unstable before their abortions are the women who were cited in that study who they've deemed mentally unstable after their abortions. And another conclusion could be claimed that abortion doesn't cure mental instability.

This is another example of many cases where people skew the results of studies to suit their particular beliefs. Until all women who choose abortion are included in a study like that, there is no way that it can be determined that the women who were unstable after an abortion were perfectly stable before an abortion and therefore they cannot state that abortion causes women to become mentally unstable.

For years dieticians claimed that avocados should be avoided because they contain so much fat. Yes they do contain a lot of fat. But more studies were done and it turned out that it is a good, natural fat that is deemed healthy today. Faulty thinking has caused us to be very slow in understanding diet and health.

We should not be so quick to read a study, especially one done by a biased group of people or by a biased person seeking to prove their beliefs, and accept conclusions based on that study.

[gadgetlady 4]

The conclusion can just as easily read: women who have mental health problems are more prone to seek abortions. There is no proof that abortion causes women to become suicidal and it is just as plausible that women who were mentally unstable before their abortions are the women who were cited in that study who they've deemed mentally unstable after their abortions.

Except that:

The suicide rate associated with birth was significantly lower (5.9) and the rates associated with miscarriage (18.1) and induced abortion (34.7) were significantly higher than in the population.

[gadgetlady 4]

If a woman can't have a baby, and abortion is not an option, women have historically chosen to either try to privately terminate the pregnancy themselves and/or they commit suicide and kill themselves.

Can you please share your sources? It's a pretty broad statement: essentially, "women who don't want to be pregnant and can't get abortions try for illegal abortions, try to self-abort, or commit suicide." And yet, there hasn't been a spike in either direction in the suicide rate (for women) since 1973 when abortion was decriminalized.

[BJean 16]

Once again, I rest my case.

[gadgetlady 4]

Once again, I rest my case.

On WHAT? LOL! I asked for your sources for the statement that pregnant mothers who don't want to be pregnant will choose one of 3 options: self-abortion, illegal abortion, or suicide. And you say nothing but "I rest my case"?

A LIST OF MAJOR PSYCHOLOGICAL SEQUELAE OF ABORTION

REQUIREMENT OF PSYCHOLOGICAL TREATMENT: In a study of post-abortion patients only 8 weeks after their abortion, researchers found that 44% complained of nervous disorders, 36% had experienced sleep disturbances, 31% had regrets about their decision, and 11% had been prescribed psychotropic medicine by their family doctor. (2) A 5 year retrospective study in two Canadian provinces found significantly greater use of medical and psychiatric services among aborted women. Most significant was the finding that 25% of aborted women made visits to psychiatrists as compared to 3% of the control group. (3) Women who have had abortions are significantly more likely than others to subsequently require admission to a psychiatric hospital. At especially high risk are teenagers, separated or divorced women, and women with a history of more than one abortion. (4)

The sources are voluminous.

See also:

THE ABORTION / SUICIDE CONNECTION

In the 1960's, when abortions were available only for "therapeutic" reasons, it was not uncommon for persons with the means and know-how to obtain an abortion on psychiatric grounds. In some states, all that was necessary was to find an agreeable psychiatrist willing to diagnose every woman with a problem pregnancy as "suicidal."

Yet all the studies done on this issue show that pregnancy is actually correlated with a dramatic decreased rate of suicide compared to non-pregnant women. This has led some psychiatrists to suggest that pregnancy somehow serves a psychologically protective role. The presence of another person to "live for" appears to reduce the suicidal impulses of a mentally disturbed or deeply depressed woman.(1)

Although pregnancy weakens suicidal impulses, there is strong evidence that abortion dramatically increases the risk of suicide. According to a 1986 study by researchers at the University of Minnesota, a teenage girl is 10 times more likely to attempt suicide if she has had an abortion in the last six months than is a comparable teenage girl who has not had an abortion.(2) Other studies have found similar statistical significance between a history of abortion and suicide attempts among adults. Thus, the actual data suggests that abortion is far more likely to drive an unstable woman to suicide than is pregnancy and childbirth.

This abortion/suicide link is well known among professionals who counsel suicidal persons. For example, Meta Uchtman, director of the Cincinnati chapter of Suiciders Anonymous, reported that in a 35 month period her group worked with 4000 women, of whom 1800 or more had abortions. Of those who had abortions, 1400 were between the ages of 15 and 24, the age group with the fastest growing suicide rate in the country.

[BJean 16]

Hon, you link enough for the both of us.

And I rest my case because I can. I'm once again nauseous after reading this thread today.