who supports right to choose

[BJean 16]

luluc: You are so totally right on! The point is whether or not we allow women to make this incredibly personal decision, whether we believe that women are the only ones who can have all the knowledge of whether it is the right thing to do, or whether a segment of the population should tell ALL women what they MUST do. It is imperative that women be able to make the decision for themselves and not be commanded to do what other people have decided is right.

[BJean 16]

LBloom: I don't know how I've missed your views on this if as you said, that you have stated them in the past. I'm sorry I didn't know how you feel.

What you have written so eloquently, is so very much more important, vital and relevant to this argument than all of the ugly right-wing propaganda that we've read so often here.

I really appreciate your taking the time to post it again. I completely respect your views and your feelings and I do very much agree that what doesn't kill you can definitely make you stronger. I also believe that we learn more from our mistakes than from our successes.

But I also believe that it is for every man and woman to learn these life lessons in their own time. I do not feel that it is our place to take on the responsibility of telling others whether they should choose to have a child or abort a child based on our own personal views.

Unfortunately as you said, you haven't known women who have chosen to have an abortion so you haven't been exposed to women who felt that they must make that choice and hear their reasoning or their stories afterwards. I have. I have known many women who have made that choice. Believe me, their stories are just as compelling as are those of the women who chose to have children and either keep them or give them up for adoption. But if you are not privy to those stories, you couldn't know that.

I have known women who were forced to have a child, out of wedlock, and whose lives were changed - in a very bad way - during the process. I have known women who gave children up for adoption who have ached and lived with the lifelong pain of having their baby be raised by strangers, and sometimes even learning of their child's subsequent abuse by unhealthy suggogate parents. Oh sure, you can say that those mothers learned something, as did the vicitimized children, but how can you condemn people to that kind of painful lesson just because you think it will one day be good for them?

I honestly do understand what you've said and I agree with practically everything you believe, but with the exception of the plan to make the choice in all cases be made by other people instead of the women actually facing the extremely, extremely important decision.

[ELENATION 0]

This debate is going nice today....

My faith definitely has influenced my thoughts on this subject , but only in some ways, my views on choice/prolife have been down many roads before ending where they are today.

I understand that pro-choicers stand their position firmly because they believe they're defending the fundamental value of choice, which I think it's very valid and I understand that pro-lifers stand their position firmly because they believe they're defending the fundamental value of life and how can we not find that valid as well...?

I also believe that life begins at conception and for me personally that does it... if I could be convinced that life begins at a later stage of a woman's pregnancy, then I would draw the line there, then I wouldn't have a problem with abortion until that momentl..., now if we assume that life begins at conception, then where does that put the issue of a woman's right to choose?

I think choice is great, it is part of what makes us humans after all, I defend a woman's right to choose a career, schools or housing , I defend her choice to decide whether to have sex, or with whom, and how often, among many other choices, whether I agree with those choices is irrelevant, because they are her choices, but I don't think that absolute choice is a guaranteed human right because think about it, society already tells us that we cannot choose to abuse a child or to steal a car or that we can't choose to burglarize a home because that would be against the basic rights of the person who lives there....

I think that when our right to choose bumps against the right of another person to exist then our choice is blocked by the law, but of course this is all assuming that we believe that life begins at conception... which in my case I just had to accept there was a moral point at which a woman's right to choose would have to end because a her right to decide what to do with her body in this case goes against the right of the baby to exist..and I personally can't live with that... however, I'm responsible only for what goes on in my heart and my head because believe me I know that crisis with pregnancies are real and serious and plenty, I don't dismiss those horrific situations at all and I hope that other prolifers don't either because that would be unkind to say the least, I just don't think that is the case though, because it wouldn't make sense for someone to care so much for a baby's life and not care at all for the mother's life, makes no sense to me, but you know, ultimately more pro-lifers, should be helping women through unplanned pregnancies or in crisis situations. I do think that some and probably many pro-lifers do this already but more should....I think that pregnant women and babies both deserve the same kind of respect and much respect and we should make major efforts to help them.

[BJean 16]

Wow. Oh my gosh, Elenation. That was fantastic! I see you in a whole new light after that post! And I really have much more respect for the way you said all that than I did when we were all throwing barbs at each other. I am so glad that you explained yourself in this way.

You know we here are just a microcosm of the society at large. Exchanging our thoughts and feelings on this subject undoubtedly gives us a pretty good picture of what most Americans believe about a woman's right to choose, which is truly fascinating.

I have to tell both you and LBloom that I agree with practically everything you have said in these last couple of posts. But with a very important exception.

I believe that a fertilized egg is a part of life. I just do not believe that it is an actual baby with that one joining of a tiny microscopic cluster of cells. The proper conditions, nutrients, length of time in utero and many other factors come into making a living, breathing human being. Just as a single sperm and a single egg are not individual human beings on their own, neither is the small cluster of cells that happen when a sperm is introduced into the uterus of a fertile woman. All of these things comprise life itself and have the potential for becoming one of god's creatures, but certain criteria must be met for a person to emerge. Fertilization is but one of the steps.

But you really can put all of that discussion aside as far as I am concerned. The whole point of this argument to me boils down to the bottom line of one group of people deciding for another group of people just exactly what they should do in the unfortunate event that a woman's egg has been fertilized by a man's sperm without her consent or without the intent of creating a person.

Many of you feel that the fertilized egg is too important to kill. I believe that giving a child a life is the most important decision a woman can ever make. The decision to bring a life into the world is a huge, enormous responsibility. A responsible woman will not bring a life into the world that she cannot receive and nurture far beyond that short period of time in her womb.

For a woman's right to be taken away by human beings like you and me is an untenable solution IMHO. It just isn't right that the law would require women to bear children that they are unprepared to love, feed, clothe, nurture and protect.

The most important factor in considering all of this is: if someone does not believe in abortions, if they believe that a baby shouild be protected by the government at any stage of conception, then they have the right to reject the idea of abortion and they have the right to step up and publicly state their beliefs. That's the law.

But for some people to tell others that they have no rights when it comes to making the most important personal decision of their lives and of having control over their own bodies, is wrong and contrary to the very idea of women as equal human beings.

[Jennie1976 1]

Elenation...I agree with what you said 100%. I was going to post here, but now I don't have to! You said it perfectly...and probably way nicer than I would have

[ELENATION 0]

Wow. Oh my gosh, Elenation. That was fantastic! I see you in a whole new light after that post! And I really have much more respect for the way you said all that than I did when we were all throwing barbs at each other. I am so glad that you explained yourself in this way.

You know we here are just a microcosm of the society at large. Exchanging our thoughts and feelings on this subject undoubtedly gives us a pretty good picture of what most Americans believe about a woman's right to choose, which is truly fascinating.

I have to tell both you and LBloom that I agree with practically everything you have said in these last couple of posts. But with a very important exception.

I believe that a fertilized egg is a part of life. I just do not believe that it is an actual baby with that one joining of a tiny microscopic cluster of cells. The proper conditions, nutrients, length of time in utero and many other factors come into making a living, breathing human being. Just as a single sperm and a single egg are not individual human beings on their own, neither is the small cluster of cells that happen when a sperm is introduced into the uterus of a fertile woman. All of these things comprise life itself and have the potential for becoming one of god's creatures, but certain criteria must be met for a person to emerge. Fertilization is but one of the steps.

But you really can put all of that discussion aside as far as I am concerned. The whole point of this argument to me boils down to the bottom line of one group of people deciding for another group of people just exactly what they should do in the unfortunate event that a woman's egg has been fertilized by a man's sperm without her consent or without the intent of creating a person.

Many of you feel that the fertilized egg is too important to kill. I believe that giving a child a life is the most important decision a woman can ever make. The decision to bring a life into the world is a huge, enormous responsibility. A responsible woman will not bring a life into the world that she cannot receive and nurture far beyond that short period of time in her womb.

For a woman's right to be taken away by human beings like you and me is an untenable solution IMHO. It just isn't right that the law would require women to bear children that they are unprepared to love, feed, clothe, nurture and protect.

The most important factor in considering all of this is: if someone does not believe in abortions, if they believe that a baby shouild be protected by the government at any stage of conception, then they have the right to reject the idea of abortion and they have the right to step up and publicly state their beliefs. That's the law.

But for some people to tell others that they have no rights when it comes to making the most important personal decision of their lives and of having control over their own bodies, is wrong and contrary to the very idea of women as equal human beings.

Thanks BJean, I think I've said this before, maybe in different words..., but the fact that the two groups can't agree on the beginning of life is the key... I personally think that when the chromosomes from the father join the mother's, they form a unique biologic individual who didn't exist before and this new individual is complete, has a gender, and is fully and uniquely equipped to grow and develop and change until death and all he or she needs is nutrition and a place to grow, but that could apply also to a 3 months old baby as well, the baby wouldn't survive without nutrition and proper conditions either, I'm not comfortable saying that the embryo has the "potential" to become a human being, to me conception occurs at fertilization which equals the beginning of life for me, so I have a problem calling it a fertilized egg and instead I call him/her a baby and it all comes down to that I think, if you were convinced that life begins at conception or I was convinced otherwise we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. I totally agree that when both sides are shouting so loud, the real voices on this issue can't be heard, that's for sure.. and it's also true that those who reject abortion should step up and state their beliefs, which goes the same way for pro-choicers, in fact as long as both sides are doing that, it will probably keep the whole thing sort of balanced, you defend the right to choose for a woman and I defend the right to live for a baby, but I'm aware that you don't believe that it's a life yet, so obviously you are not intentionally trying to kill anyone and ultimately I also want the best for the woman too. I wish there was a 200% clear way of proving when life begins and that we could all see so clearly that we could agree, that would end the whole debate..

Edited April 15, 2008 by ELENATION

[ELENATION 0]

Elenation...I agree with what you said 100%. I was going to post here, but now I don't have to! You said it perfectly...and probably way nicer than I would have

Thanks Jennie, you know, I feel that others state their opinions so much better than I do, I don't have a way with words believe me, and when I say things in a way that "sounds good" I probably had to put my good effort into it..LOL! often I'm impressed with the way people express themselves here so I don't write as much even when I want to...

[BJean 16]

It's amazing how much we can learn when we do put some thought into it and we are all civil. I can't tell you how happy I am that things have done a 180.

I really do respect the fact that you believe that it is within your rights to tell women that they shouldn't kill babies.

I hope the day never comes when we have such an overabundance of people that our government decides to force women to have abortions. I would argue and fight just as strongly against that kind of government intervention as well.

[ELENATION 0]

It's amazing how much we can learn when we do put some thought into it and we are all civil. I can't tell you how happy I am that things have done a 180.

I really do respect the fact that you believe that it is within your rights to tell women that they shouldn't kill babies.

I hope the day never comes when we have such an overabundance of people that our government decides to force women to have abortions. I would argue and fight just as strongly against that kind of government intervention as well.

Totally agree!

[luluc 6]

Wow. Oh my gosh, Elenation. That was fantastic! I see you in a whole new light after that post! And I really have much more respect for the way you said all that than I did when we were all throwing barbs at each other. I am so glad that you explained yourself in this way.

.

Elenation - I too enjoyed/appreciated your post.

The reason I feel there needs to be a "Law" in place to protect the Right to Choose hinges on the fact that many do not hold your view that life begins at conception. Because there are "differences" of opinion, I feel it's important the "law" be in place to protect my right; because it would be unfair for me or anyone else to be held accountable to anothers belief system.

There are actual more dynamics to this discussion other than when conception begins - that's just one of them. For the many more "what if" scenarios, I always come back to..."Well that's great you believe that way, I don't" - therefore I should be allowed to make my own decision, however painful it may be.

Again, appreciated your post & view,

[Jennie1976 1]

The reason I feel there needs to be a "Law" in place to protect the Right to Choose hinges on the fact that many do not hold your view that life begins at conception. Because there are "differences" of opinion, I feel it's important the "law" be in place to protect my right; because it would be unfair for me or anyone else to be held accountable to anothers belief system.

,

Luluc...

I understand what you are saying here..that because there are differences of opinion of when life begins, this right to choose should not be infringed. However, those of us who see life as beginning at conception do not see it as anything other than biological fact...not opinion.

Scientifically speaking (and putting my religious beliefs COMPLETELY aside), life needs three things to exist: the ability to grow, the ability to consume food, and the ability to reproduce upon maturity. From conception, the combined egg and sperm have all of the necessary components for life...100% of its DNA as well as the three items necessary for life to exist. So, while I see your point of view, I cannot accept that logic as, to me, it goes against scientific thinking.

[ELENATION 0]

Elenation - I too enjoyed/appreciated your post.

The reason I feel there needs to be a "Law" in place to protect the Right to Choose hinges on the fact that many do not hold your view that life begins at conception. Because there are "differences" of opinion, I feel it's important the "law" be in place to protect my right; because it would be unfair for me or anyone else to be held accountable to anothers belief system.

There are actual more dynamics to this discussion other than when conception begins - that's just one of them. For the many more "what if" scenarios, I always come back to..."Well that's great you believe that way, I don't" - therefore I should be allowed to make my own decision, however painful it may be.

Again, appreciated your post & view,

Oh Thanks Luluc!

I hear you, I think that the "beginning of life" is the main issue, but you are right it's not the only dynamic, but if at least we could all agree completely on the beginning of life, maybe not all, but I think a lot of people from both sides would end up agreeing at the end..., if I believed that life begins at 12 weeks of gestation and prochoicers believe the same thing, most of us wouldn't approve an abortion after that because we wouldn't want to end a life, except for the what ifs... which are the other dynamics like you said, but the whole issue would be a lot clearer and the differences would be less IMHO.

[luluc 6]

Oh Thanks Luluc!

I hear you, I think that the "beginning of life" is the main issue, but you are right it's not the only dynamic, but if at least we could all agree completely on the beginning of life, maybe not all, but I think a lot of people from both sides would end up agreeing at the end..., if I believed that life begins at 12 weeks of gestation and prochoicers believe the same thing, most of us wouldn't approve an abortion after that because we wouldn't want to end a life, except for the what ifs... which are the other dynamics like you said, but the whole issue would be a lot clearer and the differences would be less IMHO.

in response to jennie as well:

i can agree it is the beginning of life, absolutely i can. i also understand the "science" vs religious view on this, and for me (& my pro choice view only), it is still someone else's view that i may not share. i might even share some of the same beliefs, however i would never want my value system to be judge & jury over anothers body.

see ele, we can get along:tongue:

[ELENATION 0]

in response to jennie as well:

i can agree it is the beginning of life, absolutely i can. i also understand the "science" vs religious view on this, and for me (& my pro choice view only), it is still someone else's view that i may not share. i might even share some of the same beliefs, however i would never want my value system to be judge & jury over anothers body.

see ele, we can get along:tongue:

LOL! we sure can baby!:crying:

I understand, you are protecting the woman's right to choose, which it doesn't have to be necessarily your own view or belief, like I've heard prochoicers say that they would never have an abortion themselves, but they still want to protect the woman's right to choose , but say in my case, if I believe that from a scientific stand point life begins at conception and I say that it's ok to have an abortion, even for the sake of protecting the woman's right, (and I want to add that women's rights are extremely important to me ) then I feel like I'm saying that it's ok to end a life...and I feel like a hypocrite.. or contradicting myself, but I hear you, not everybody agrees with life beginning at conception and not everybody agrees with me...:crying:

Edited April 16, 2008 by ELENATION

[BJean 16]

Let's say there is a sperm that swims up and enters a women's egg. If you took that clump of cells out of the woman, there is no way that it would continue to grow or even exist as life in any form - at least not without science and test tubes. It would die a natural death and for some, a medical abortion at early stages is nothing more than an intervention step in a process, much like a morning after pill.

There are many, many cases where a sperm has fertilized an egg and yet those clumps of cells never produce a baby. There are huge numbers of spontaneous abortions that happen every day. We don't mourn that loss of cells as "deaths". We may mourn the fact that we are not pregnant, but there was never a baby, and so we don't have a funeral or an investigation about the "death" of a clump of cells.

Some women want more than anything to be pregnant and to bear a child. Some people believe that all life is sacred and that life in any form should be preserved. That's fair.

However there are some women who cannot bear a child, for a miriad of reasons, and yet have had a fertilized egg implant itself in her uterus and begin the process. Those women have the right and deserve to have the right to not grow that clump of cells into a baby.

For me, that decision is the ultimate personal decision. It has no bearing on the rest of the world. It is her decision and hers alone. She may choose to confide in her mate or her clergy or family, but she is ultimately the one who has to bear the burden of this physical reality and she's the only one who is physically at risk. Therefore it is not fair for outsiders to make the decision whether or not a woman should risk her life to have a child.

When there is absolutely no risk to women to have children, and when the government takes on the responsibility for all the unwanted children, then we can revisit this issue and I will reassess my position on the subject. Until then, I will continue to disagree with anyone who moves to pass a law requiring all women who have been impregnated to mature some clumps of cells into living, breathing, human beings.

Of course all of this is just IMHO! :crying: