who supports right to choose

[ELENATION 0]

I beg to differ, BJean. There is history to TommyO's post. He was very specifically, personally, insulting me (or at least attempting to). He was around a long time ago (1-2 years?) when laurend and I had a very thoughtful, lengthy, and thought-provoking discussion about Intelligent Design / Creation Science vs. evolution. TommyO's comment to me on this thread (and on others) frequently pulls in his disdain for my personal beliefs: hence this was very much a "personal attack" that may have appeared to some as just random musings.

That being said, I must apologize for how I responded. I should not have stooped to that level. It was petty and I should have ignored him, as I normally try to do. I will try harder in the future, until and unless his posts actually have legitimate points to make.

Gadget, I strongly believe that there is not doubt in anyone's mind here that Tommy O was being rude and insulting, despite of any comments from anyone saying otherwise in an attempt to obtain support for their views, his post was clear in regards to his manners, and anyone that can read english can surely see the personal attack and not a civil discussion/debate from his part, but truly, his posts bring nothing positive or intellectual in my opinion and I believe they are much better ignored, they are not worth it.:smile:

Edited April 4, 2008 by ELENATION

[gadgetlady 4]

How come you can't see, that she took a horrid situation and turned it around in the end? You can't see that from that fateful moment she chose to terminate her pregnancy she turned her life around. Not because she had an abortion but because she knew she had to change or everything she had just done would be for nothing. She changed her life all for this unborn child that she would never hold, never see. She chose to make this unborn child the base to her life, not despite it.

But you wont see that will you? You wont see that that one fateful moment changed her life forever. You wont see that she lives her life because of that child, not despite it.

Pix, I can hear your friend's regret so clearly through you, and it makes me more sad than you know. A lot of people turn their lives around due to a defining moment or choice. There are prisoners in jail who regret very deeply what they've done and would never do it again -- but that doesn't take back the action for which they are being held liable. Just because your friend turned her life around due to her defining moment doesn't make the action that caused her regret right or good or laudable.

[ELENATION 0]

Tommy, Empathy is something that is taught, not learned through life. I was raised to feel great sympathy and empathy for those around me. I am not Christian, nor am I am atheist. I do believe something is out there showing us how to be and how to live, it is our choice on whether or not we look at what we are being shown. For quite some time I wandered through life blindly, I was a drug addict, and just an all around mean spiteful person.

My epiphany wasn't the same as most, my rock bottom was probably mild compared to some. But I did make the choice to change my life for the better. I wont judge nor begrudge someone because of there life choices nor there belief system. I wont offer harsh words or spiteful vitriol because they disagree with me.

I can see your arguments and even understand them, but the way you convey them is just (strictly my opinion) mean and petty. I would assume you don't mean for them to come across as such, but that is how they are being perceived.

Pix, I admire you, you turned your life around! I also respect your debate style and respect your feelings very much, I can feel your gentle spirit and I mean this from my heart.

Elena

[Pix 4]

Why couldn't she clean herself up without killing her baby, too? Why did she require that particular catalyst to turn her life around?

Very good questions, at the time I don’t think she felt she had another choice. She was doing some pretty harsh and addictive drugs (I do believe she was on Methamphetamines, coke, and heroine (she also popped any pill she could get)). She had a sobering moment when she realized she was pregnant and her child could be born with her addictions, and the mental retardation, physical retardation and other affects of her abuse. It wasn’t the choice of abortion that was the catalyst, but the emotional anguish after her abortion that spurred her on to change her life for her the child she would never hold. She didn’t want that life to be in vain. She wanted to live for the child that never would.

I cannot imagine a "right choice" "haunting" someone for the rest of her life. Generally, when something "haunts" a person, it was a wrong choice.

Not necessarily, sometimes the right choice is as traumatic as the wrong choice.

Here is a scenario I want you to think long and hard over; your elderly mother is on life support, no chance of ever ever waking up. You make the choice to terminate life support as you feel her soul has long departed and you are just keeping the body breathing. That is not an easy choice; it is a very traumatic choice. But it might be the right choice. While part of you is screaming she is there breathing, the other part of you is weeping as you know it is just an empty shell of a woman who used to be. How is that an easy choice? I know it is more apple and oranges these two topics, but the choice is as painful and soul wrenching.

Pix, I have no doubt that your best friend suffers greatly for her "choice" to this day -- even as you say it, I'm sure that the pain she is in daily is beyond what she can even share with you. While she was able to turn her life around, still yet many women experience the opposite: after their abortions they sink into a life of depression, drugs, and alcohol trying to bury the memories that haunt them (I'm sure those in favor of abortion will strenuously disagree with me here, but it's a fact for many -- not all -- mothers who abort).

Yes, that is true many women do face such turmoil in life after making that choice. My friend was blessed with a loving and supportive family and friends. We held her hand through many days and nights of withdrawals, and mental screaming at what she had done. It was a horrid and trying time for us all. Mostly for her, but she came through, and she has taken the steps to insure her choice was not in vein, and it was in the end her choice.

Now she is living that life of pain and anguish because of a decision that haunts her, when she could have taken the same steps she took to clean up her life AND carry her baby to term at the same time.

No, at the time that wasn’t a choice, not for her. Her pain and anguish are not holding her down, or keeping her in the past. She is using all of that as a tool to spur her life forward, raising her children right, instilling in them the belief in life. She has used that as her own reason for living right and to keep herself surrounded by loving caring people, and being a productive member of society. She has taken a tremendously sad and tragic time in her life to change her life for the better.

She may tell you and/or you may surmise that the abortion was the best thing that ever happened to her and she would do it again, but I strongly suspect she says that to justify a decision that she regrets and would not choose again. She may not even know she's doing this, either. Can I ask you, if she hasn't received specifically post-abortion counseling already, to encourage her to do so? While this decision will always be with her, I know a lot of women who have experienced incredible healing through the counseling. I wish her my best and she will be in my prayers.

Good gracious where did I ever give you the idea she thought that abortion was the best thing to happen to her?? It was categorically not the best thing to ever happen to her. It was a tremendously sad trial in her life. She does not justify what she has done, but she stands by her choice she made in her life.

Edited April 4, 2008 by Pix
few spelling words

[gadgetlady 4]

the emotional anguish after her abortion that spurred her on to change her life for her the child she would never hold. She didn’t want that life to be in vain. She wanted to live for the child that never would.

:smile: This makes me so very sad. I feel for her in so many ways.

Here is a scenario I want you to think long and hard over; your elderly mother is on life support, no chance of ever ever waking up. You make the choice to terminate life support as you feel her soul has long departed and you are just keeping the body breathing. That is not an easy choice; it is a very traumatic choice. But it might be the right choice. While part of you is screaming she is there breathing, the other part of you is weeping as you know it is just an empty shell of a woman who used to be. How is that an easy choice?

I don't think it's an easy choice, but I wouldn't say it was "haunting". How you portrayed your friend's choice and her ensuing emotional state clearly indicates a tremendous amount of regret. The scenario presented above wouldn't likely cause a "haunting" or having someone make a life-changing decision to live the rest of their life for that person (as you said your friend did). "Right" choices are not always easy, but they generally don't "haunt" you for the rest of your life.

Good gracious where did I ever give you the idea she thought that abortion was the best thing to happen to her?? It was categorically not the best thing to ever happen to her. It was a tremendously sad trial in her life.

I'm sorry. I tried really hard to capture both the specific words and the spirit of her situation when I responded to you. I got the impression that both you and she believed the abortion, being the catalyst for change and what turned her around, was a good thing.

[gadgetlady 4]

Empathy is something that is taught, not learned through life.

I've been mulling over this for a while, and I'm not sure I completely agree. I think we can be taught the value of empathy, but we don't really internalize it until we can hypothetically place ourselves in the position of the person for whom we want/need/expect to feel empathy -- which is something learned through life experiences (at least it was for me). I think it is completely possible to never be taught to have empathy, but to learn it as you journey through your own mistakes in life.

Off topic a bit, I know, but this statement gave me pause and I really wanted to comment on it.

[Pix 4]

I've been mulling over this for a while, and I'm not sure I completely agree. I think we can be taught the value of empathy, but we don't really internalize it until we can hypothetically place ourselves in the position of the person for whom we want/need/expect to feel empathy -- which is something learned through life experiences (at least it was for me). I think it is completely possible to never be taught to have empathy, but to learn it as you journey through your own mistakes in life.

Off topic a bit, I know, but this statement gave me pause and I really wanted to comment on it.

In order to process empathy you have to be taught what it is, and how to employ it. With out being taught empathy, you can never feel it or even begin to internalize those feelings and and thoughts.

So if you are not taught empathy, you can never feel empathy.

[gadgetlady 4]

In order to process empathy you have to be taught what it is, and how to employ it. With out being taught empathy, you can never feel it or even begin to internalize those feelings and and thoughts.

So if you are not taught empathy, you can never feel empathy.

If you are not taught empathy but find yourself in a situation where you are able to mentally equate your dire straits to those of another -- in essence to come to the realization that you could just as easily be in the situation the other guy is in -- you can learn empathy from your circumstances. I only say this because I've seen "there but for the Grace of God go I" moments happen to people who haven't ever been empathetic before.

[Pix 4]

I guess this is something we will have to agree to disagree on.

I firmly believe you have to be taught empathy in order to feel empathy. The situations you mentioned, the AHHA! moments while seem spontaneous said person was probably at one point in his life taught empathy but never chose to employ it.

[luluc 6]

This thread is going SO fast today, hard to keep up. I'd like to though comment on why many of those who are Pro Choice, take the poll & don't join this discussion.

I look at it this way: I remember as a young kid my Mom closing the blinds and not answering the door when a Jehovahs Witness came to the door. Young me asked if she wasn't answering the door because they were black? (not to offend anyone here - that was the Majority that came door calling). Well I guess my question opened her eyes, and the next time they came to the door, my mom stepped out onto the porch to talk...I of course was my moms shadow and was DYING to hear this discussion. My mom pointed out that this was a predominantly Italian Catholic neighborhood - why do you keep coming when you get the door slammed on you repetedly. The man answered, because Jesus never gave up. My mom explained that she "understands" their "calling", but she has her faith - and it can't be changed or challenged.

I say this because I feel the Pro Life movement really does have a calling - Hard to miss that here on this thread...Just like the Pro Choice "understand" that calling - it's not theirs, they have a point of view / opinion about abortion - it's not likely to change, but quite possibly they don't care to be preached to?

This is just my take on the reluctance of others joining....I don't agree w/you Gadget at all, however your passion does come across, hope you don't take this the wrong way,

[gadgetlady 4]

I guess this is something we will have to agree to disagree on.

It's not really that big a deal; just an observation I had. What we CAN agree on is that empathy is important :smile:

[ELENATION 0]

This thread is going SO fast today, hard to keep up. I'd like to though comment on why many of those who are Pro Choice, take the poll & don't join this discussion.

I look at it this way: I remember as a young kid my Mom closing the blinds and not answering the door when a Jehovahs Witness came to the door. Young me asked if she wasn't answering the door because they were black? (not to offend anyone here - that was the Majority that came door calling). Well I guess my question opened her eyes, and the next time they came to the door, my mom stepped out onto the porch to talk...I of course was my moms shadow and was DYING to hear this discussion. My mom pointed out that this was a predominantly Italian Catholic neighborhood - why do you keep coming when you get the door slammed on you repetedly. The man answered, because Jesus never gave up. My mom explained that she "understands" their "calling", but she has her faith - and it can't be changed or challenged.

I say this because I feel the Pro Life movement really does have a calling - Hard to miss that here on this thread...Just like the Pro Choice "understand" that calling - it's not theirs, they have a point of view / opinion about abortion - it's not likely to change, but quite possibly they don't care to be preached to?

This is just my take on the reluctance of others joining....I don't agree w/you Gadget at all, however your passion does come across, hope you don't take this the wrong way,

I understand your point, interesting point too, but if we are referring to it as a "calling from God", many involved in the pro-life movement do not consider the issue a religious issue, and many also believe that life begins at conception to be a fact and not just an opinion, so a calling from God wouldn't be the main reason to be pro-life all the time, now if we are saying it's a "life calling" I suppose it could apply in some cases, I guess what I'm trying to point out is that many pro-lifers believe that from a scientific point of view a human being is killed during an abortion... ok, I think I'm rambling on now.... sorry about that..:cursing:

[luluc 6]

I understand your point, interesting point too, but if we are referring to it as a "calling from God", many involved in the pro-life movement do not consider the issue a religious issue, and many also believe that life begins at conception to be a fact and not just an opinion, so a calling from God wouldn't be the main reason to be pro-life all the time, now if we are saying it's a "life calling" I suppose it could apply in some cases, I guess what I'm trying to point out is that many pro-lifers believe that from a scientific point of view a human being is killed during an abortion... ok, I think I'm rambling on now.... sorry about that..

Sorta specifically left out "calling from God" - rather left it as a calling because of your correct assessment above. Not all of the Pro Life movement is religious affiliated, it is however a "perception" of the majority. I've mentioned previously - you see bibles held up to block a planned parenthood - not a science book....So those on the Pro Choice side, see that image - and it's a perception of your belief / "calling" that you want to "inform"/preach/impose" yours views onto others.

Again totally my view on why many vote the way they do - and don't share here on this thread...Got fog brain (cedar fever allergies) so I may not be all there in my thoughts...:cursing:

[BJean 16]

luluc, I"m afraid you have one more example why people don't share their own stories here. I understood your analogy.

Onof my pet peeves is that sometimes people with differing views jump on a post and take it off in a different direction and run with it, just to make their own point. It may not accurately reflect the original poster's intent.

Someone pointed that particular point out above when they referenced my argument that TommyO wasn't being personally insulting. (I didn't deny that his post was hard-edged.)

I think that people felt so disgusted and insulted by TommyO's first post because they identify with the kind of person that TommyO used to make his point. He wasn't naming names, or pointing fingers at any one person in particular. He was making a generalized statement that you can choose to understand as his way of making a point, or you can choose to take it as a finger poked in your own eye. We all have those choices when we read the posts here.

Nor is it productive to choose to argue about personalities or to point out grammatical or spelling errors. That only comes across as trying to discredit someone because you don't agree with their post.

But ces't la vie. Differences are what make the world go 'round. And they also makes for pretty firey debates here! Whoo-hoo!! :cursing:

[BJean 16]

P.S. I think it was very big of gadget to reflect on TommyO's post and admitting that her reaction may have had something to do with posts that he has made elsewhere or some time ago. Very cool.