who supports right to choose

[gadgetlady 4]

The fertilized egg starts out by being implanted in the woman's tissue.

It is implanted in, but it is not a part of. The baby is not the mother's reproductive organ.

[gadgetlady 4]

Gadget, if the woman's life is in danger, or there is something seriously wrong with the baby, do you still not support late term abortions in these circumstances??

I do not support killing disabled people regardless of whether they might die later or might have a less-than-perfect life.

I do support a woman being allowed to abort should carrying the baby to term physically threaten her life. The is the only circumstance in which I support abortion, because it is the physical taking of one life to preserve the physical life of another.

That being said, if a baby is viable, there is no reason he or she has to be killed to be removed from the mother's uterus. The procedure for late-term abortion is that the baby is killed and delivered, or partially delivered and killed along the way. It is just as easy for the baby to be delivered alive.

Finally, virtually all late-term abortions are not due to a threat to the mother's physical life. And an Alan Guttmacher (a pro-abortion group) study in 2002 found that only 2% of late-term abortions were due to a diagnosis of a fetal problem.

[gadgetlady 4]

Because the new argument would be why not allow your fertilized egg be developed in this new contraption. Duh.

You said, "If someone invents a contraption that will replace a woman's womb, God forbid, then the argument could change."

My question was, then, do you support a ban on late-term abortions, because there is, precisely, a "contraption" that will allow the baby to live outside of the mother's womb?

Why is it different because the baby spent 20 weeks or so in the mother's womb prior to viability? If the baby can survive outside the womb without the mother, and your argument is that a mother shouldn't have to be inconvenienced with a baby growing inside of her if she doesn't want to, why should she be allowed to kill the baby if she can simply be "un-inconvenienced" by having the baby removed from her womb alive?

[BJean 16]

It's just this kind of rudeness that makes people not want to discuss this with you, gadget.

I never once have said anything about a woman being "inconvenienced" by a pregnancy. That is your nastiness coming out.

Just because you think that's how people feel who may have to choose to have an abortion, doesn't mean you know what the heck you're talking about. Your lack of compassion and understanding of the very shattering components of a woman finding out that she is pregnant when she did not plan for it, and cannot support it, is expected but still shocking.

Your harshness is one of the reasons you won't win this argument. That's one of the major problems with the anti-choice movement. Your use of certain language and your insistence that no one's beliefs are valid if they are different from yours is just the stuff that makes people think twice when reading your propaganda.

I finished with this for tonight. Don't worry though, tomorrow I'll find more time to devote to this space.

[Carrie_C 9]

I do have a problem with late term abortions, except I think if there is something really wrong with the baby and it is going to die as soon as it's born and suffer, then I do support a late term abortion. I didn't think there were many states that allowed late term abortions anyway, except for the 2 reasons stated above. But I may be wrong.

[gadgetlady 4]

It's just this kind of rudeness that makes people not want to discuss this with you, gadget.

What is rude about asking you to clarify why you believe late-term abortions are perfectly acceptable?

I never once have said anything about a woman being "inconvenienced" by a pregnancy. That is your nastiness coming out.

MY nastiness? When you repeatedly talk about how all pro-lifers want to do is suppress and control women?

Your lack of compassion and understanding of the very shattering components of a woman finding out that she is pregnant when she did not plan for it, and cannot support it, is expected but still shocking.

Give me a break. I understand and have compassion for women who are pregnant and don't want to be. I just don't believe that telling them to kill their offspring helps them in any way. Women deserve better. Portraying me as uncompassionate isn't warranted; you have no idea how I speak with mothers facing unplanned pregnancies.

Your harshness is one of the reasons you won't win this argument. That's one of the major problems with the anti-choice movement. Your use of certain language and your insistence that no one's beliefs are valid if they are different from yours is just the stuff that makes people think twice when reading your propaganda.

BJean, I have a little news for you. While you may consider me harsh, my fellow pro-lifers feel the same way about you; they consider you shrill. The majority of the American public agrees with neither of us. They don't believe abortion should be illegal in all cases, and nor do they believe that abortion-on-demand should be legal through all nine months of pregnancy for any reason. So portraying me as out-of-touch just as easily applies to you.

[gadgetlady 4]

I didn't think there were many states that allowed late term abortions anyway, except for the 2 reasons stated above. But I may be wrong.

The "right" to late-term abortions for any reason was guaranteed in the companion case to Roe v Wade, Doe v Bolton. States do try to limit late-term abortions, but are generally unsuccessful (some challenges to late-term abortion bans are still working their way "up the ranks" of the court system). There are very few abortionists that will perform late-term abortions (because they are particularly gruesome and one "complication" is that the babies are sometimes born alive), but they are legal.

Some people reach the improper conclusion that late-term abortions are illegal because their local abortion clinic doesn't perform them. But that is due to a combination of other causes (the abortionist, the medical technology in that facility, etc.) more than it is a legal issue.

[gadgetlady 4]

I didn't think there were many states that allowed late term abortions anyway, except for the 2 reasons stated above. But I may be wrong.

BTW, Carrie, your belief is not an uncommon one. What states have been successful in is banning a particular abortion procedure, partial-birth abortion, the banning of which has led a lot of people to reach the mistaken conclusion that that meant all late-term abortions were banned.

[Carrie_C 9]

I know abortion is legal during all 9 months of pregnancy, but I have done a search on states that allow elective late term abortions, but I couldn't find any. (That doesn't mean they aren't out there). In my state, it is only legal up to 12 weeks. In Georgia, it is legal during the second trimester (don't remember how many weeks exactly), and I have know women who went to Georgia to have one because they were too far along to have one here.

[gadgetlady 4]

I know abortion is legal during all 9 months of pregnancy, but I have done a search on states that allow elective late term abortions, but I couldn't find any. (That doesn't mean they aren't out there). In my state, it is only legal up to 12 weeks. In Georgia, it is legal during the second trimester (don't remember how many weeks exactly), and I have know women who went to Georgia to have one because they were too far along to have one here.

It is not uncommon for a state or locality to pass a law which is later deemed unconstitutional and is in direct violation with existing case law on the matter (this doesn't just apply to abortion, but to a lot of issues). This is one of those situations. Tennessee does indeed have a law limiting abortion, but that law is in direct contrast with Roe and Doe and therefore, when/if challenged, will likely be struck down. There has not been one single state abortion ban (since 1973) which, when challenged in the Supreme Court, has been upheld.

Yes, the short-term effect is that abortion is banned after 12 weeks in Tennessee. But if you look at Kansas, where George Tiller specialized in late-term abortions, in that state there are numerous abortion-limiting laws, yet Tiller is still in business (Abortion Care - George Tiller MD - Wichita, Kansas). Were a late-term abortionist to set up shop in Tennessee and challenge the law, based on past decisions of the court, the law would likely be deemed unconstitutional.

From Tennessee

Tennessee's unconstitutional and unenforceable ban outlaws abortions performed as early as twelve weeks. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-15-209 (Enacted 1997).

Tennessee's ban is unconstitutional according to the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Stenberg v. Carhart. 530 U.S. 914 (2000). In Stenberg, the Court held that a similar ban, which lacked an exception to protect a woman's health and was written so broadly as to ban more than one procedure, placed an undue burden on a woman's right to choose.

[Carrie_C 9]

"Were a late-term abortionist to set up shop in Tennessee and challenge the law, based on past decisions of the court, the law would likely be deemed unconstitutional."

I doubt that would happen in my city, because as I have stated before, everytime an abortion clinic is about to open here, they get ran out. The closest one is over 2 hours away. There are a few private doctors who preform them, but it is very difficult to find them.

[gadgetlady 4]

An informative video: Born Alive at One True Media - share slideshows, slide shows, MySpace slideshows, MySpace codes, free video sharing, video montages.

[L8BloomR 1]

Well, it has been many months since I have posted on LBT but I just had to jump back into this thread because of what has been going on in my life in the pro-life arena. Gadgetlady and I have been "collaborating" on a wonderful "project"...and that has given me a new-found respect for this whole issue.

As you might have read on another thread, Gadget shared about a baby being saved from abortion and now being adopted by her close friends. That baby belongs to the daughter of my co-worker and this has been a phenomenal experience for us all. If you believe in God, you would know that the twists and turns that have occurred not only saved this baby (who was just a couple days away from being aborted) but also brought him to an incredible couple with the background and experience to make his new life a blessing to all involved. And that these things could only have been made possible by God's love and intervention. If you are not a believer, then the many amazing "coincidences" would shake your belief in the Law of Averages!

In any case, I am sharing this because I think that with all battles, anger and frustration we have with each other on all sides of this debate, it might be helpful to remember that some of us here have seen first-hand what blessings can come when a woman---or anyone, for that matter---takes what God has given and allows Him to forge the path. Gadget and I are seeing with our own eyes the power of this right now. Lives are being changed dramatically, all in wonderful ways, even though at first it looked as black and bleak as can be. To see the journey unfolding in such special ways has humbled all involved. I feel so blessed to be a part of it.

What I am trying to say is that for those who believe that life is precious and that God has planned each one (and the baby discussed above is proof of that to everyone who knows the full story), there is no way to dissuade them from that. It would be like trying to deny their own heart. For those who don't believe...well, you can't blame us for trying to do what we feel is God's will and trying to save lives.

As I've said before, I do understand that pro-abortion people believe that their duty is to the unhappily-pregnant woman. I only wish that more of them would see that sometimes the hardest thing, the inconvenient thing or the most difficult thing is the thing that makes us the happiest in the long run.

Just my thoughts....

[BJean 16]

L8Bloom: That is a fantastic story and I think you all are fantistic for getting people together and helping save a life! It is just this kind of thing that I believe is the only real way to stop abortions.

I don't know anyone who is "pro-abortion". I do know lots and lots of people who believe that making abortion a crime is not the answer to solving this very difficult problem.

Keep up your good work in helping save women's lives and giving the gift of life to babies!

[L8BloomR 1]

Thank you, BJean. I appreciate your kind and thoughtful response.