who supports right to choose

[gadgetlady 4]

Let's not fight about the after affects of the real problem . . . Stop fighting about what is a baby a baby, when is it suppose to be human, that's not the issue.

With all due respect, Butch, the after-effects of abortion, if you're the baby, are death. So it is QUITE important to discuss the matter. When a baby is entitled to the most basic of all human rights, the right to life, is 100% of the issue.

I agree that we should prevent the exploitation of women. I agree that movies and television don't provide an accurate representation of real women. But selling women short, telling them they need to kill their unborn babies to lead a full life, that they can't be mothers and still be successful, telling them that it's OK to kill their offspring to move forward with their lives, and most of all telling them that the thing growing inside of them isn't a baby, is telling them a lie.

Edited August 27, 2008 by gadgetlady

[FuelMan 2]

The fighting about this subject will go on for a long time, So lets get away from the fight. It's the government who like this fighting, if they keep us fighting we won't look at the real problem. It's not the killing and the not killing of baby's, it the pregnancies, and the trauma that goes along with it. If we offered the lady's a place to have the kids and raise them or give them up to cool people, and if we offered help for woman who can not afford another kid, or who would take care of the kids as the girls went back to school, or job training and then had child day or night care where kids could grow safe and healthy, now wouldn't that be a better way to go ??? What we really need is the backing of a strong Government who is willing to spend money on taking care of the women here in this country and helping young girls have these kids in a safe and healthy environment would be better. So the trauma of having and raising a kid was nice experience, not a nightmare. As I see it the prisons are full of baby's who might have been better off being aborted before they where born. The killers, rapists, psycho's, and the hard core's, that no amount of rehab will help. They where brought up in a hell we know nothing about, and don't want to know. Maybe if that mother was offered help at the beginning and to raise that child in a safe way, both her and the child might have turned out different. I know this seems simple and like I am putting the blame on our government, but we spend billions a pond billions in foreign aid, and oil wars, we might want to look at our own people and how to help them make a better live for them self's, and help the poor. If we do it your way it will only help putting abortions underground, it's not going to go away. To me your way and the way of "Pro-Life" does not make any sense. It's not about killing baby's, forget about the baby's and look deeper at the real problem. Try and see out side of the box, step back and look at the bigger picture. The baby is the last step, lets try and fix the first one. We should all come together and fight this as united front.

Butch

Om Sai Rama

[gadgetlady 4]

If we offered the lady's a place to have the kids and raise them or give them up to cool people, and if we offered help for woman who can not afford another kid, or who would take care of the kids as the girls went back to school, or job training and then had child day or night care where kids could grow safe and healthy, now wouldn't that be a better way to go ???

If you truly think that's not already being done, look around you. I guarantee you, if you have a woman who needs help placing her baby for adoption, or a place to live while she's pregnant, or any other kind of assistance, I can find pro-lifers who will provide it for her. In fact, I have several friends who are looking to adopt any baby in any condition. If you know of anyone who is wanting to place a baby for adoption, please PM me.

As I see it the prisons are full of baby's who might have been better off being aborted before they where born. The killers, rapists, psycho's, and the hard core's, that no amount of rehab will help.

Wow. Well, according, to this, why don't we just kill off everyone who's living a life we don't think is worthy, and start over. Heck, if a woman keeps getting pregnant and doesn't want to be, why don't we just kill her and the baby? After all, she might be better off dead.

(is that your decision to make?)

It's not about killing baby's, forget about the baby's and look deeper at the real problem.

Imagine you are a slave in the 1800's. Someone says to you, "It's not about freeing the slaves. Forget about the slaves and look deeper at the real problem. Let's look at the infrastructure. Let's look at whether these slaves will have jobs if we free them. Let's look at whether we have the ability to educate them. It's better that they remain slaves and we try to create a social utopia first, and then people will just naturally let their slaves go free when they see the help that's available for them."

Or how about this? You live in Nazi Germany and you're slated for the gas chamber in a week, and someone says to you, "It's not about stopping the genocide. Forget about the Jews and look deeper at the real problem. If we were to just cleanse the world of the Jews and the problems they cause, then we would all live in a better place and we wouldn't have the problems we have in our society right now. Then the remaining Jews would see their place and they wouldn't try to impose themselves on the rest of the world."

Do you see the problem here? While you hem and haw about social ills, 4,000 babies died today! You might not care about their lives, but someone should. They are voiceless because they can't speak or be seen, which is why others choose to be a voice for them.

[libra 13]

The thing is...there is no way anyone is going to sway the opinion of someone on the other side. There is no point in the argument or debate, it won't change someone's mind. A pro-choice advocate won't suddenly become pro-life and vice versa.

And yes, the adoption system in this country sucks. There's a huge waiting list for white children, yet black and hispanic children are left to suffer in the system. Maybe if there was a better system for these children, abortion wouldn't even be an issue.

[Carrie_C 9]

I think no matter what help is available or not availabe, abortions are going to continue to happen, either legal or illegal. Some women just don't want babies. Plain and simple. No amount of help offered is going to change their minds. If they don't want it, they don't want it, and there is nothing anyone can do about it.

[gadgetlady 4]

The thing is...there is no way anyone is going to sway the opinion of someone on the other side. There is no point in the argument or debate, it won't change someone's mind.

That's not true. There are many abortionists -- people who used to perform abortions -- who are now pro-life. Bernard Nathanson, who was a co-founder of NARAL, is now a pro-life advocate. Norma McCorvey, Jane Roe of Roe v. Wade, is pro-life. Sadly, many women become pro-life after they've had an abortion and come to terms with what they've done.

I have met people who used to be pro-abortion and are no longer. I have convinced people, based on biological and logical evidence, to change their opinion.

Yes, there are some people who will never be convinced. But that does not mean that there aren't any who will ever be convinced. If you look at the statistics of support for Roe over the years, you will notice that the numbers have changed and are still changing; as a country, we are slowly becoming more pro-life.

And yes, the adoption system in this country sucks. There's a huge waiting list for white children, yet black and hispanic children are left to suffer in the system. Maybe if there was a better system for these children, abortion wouldn't even be an issue.

I hear that said often, and it's a misunderstanding. Most of the children that are "in the system" as you say, are older children. Infants of all colors, cultural backgrounds, disabilities, etc. are, when available, adopted very quickly.

Furthermore, mothers don't abort because they don't think anyone will adopt their child. They abort because they don't want a child themselves.

[BJean 16]

Once again gadget, I will reiterate as many times as I need to, Senator Obama does not want to withhold medical care from babies who are born alive. You are putting your own (or whoever convinced you of it) spin on Senator Obama's vote. His vote was not about killing babies. His vote was based on whether an additional medical professional should be mandated to be present when a baby is born alive after an abortion. There is a distinction that is obviously lost on you and that distinction has to do with the issue that it is inappropriate for the government to mandate additional medical personnel to be present in those cases. You are using his beliefs against him and you are twisting his beliefs to mean something that they do not mean to further your cause. And you're also doing it to harm his standing as a candidate for president.

I agree with you when you say that people do change their minds, however I have a strong feeling that when people read this debate here, they won't necessarily be agreeing with you and your methods. One can only hope.

[Carrie_C 9]

I was once prochoice, but after watching and learning how an abortion is actually preformed, how violent it is, I have to say, it has really made me think twice. Like I said in an earlier post, I think if more people actually saw it and knew how it was done, a lot more people would change their minds. And it has nothing to do with politics.

[BJean 16]

The videos you watch that are horribly gruesome and violent are as far as I'm concerned an exaggeration of the truth. An abortion (early in the pregnancy) is a simple procedure.

We all have our own beliefs on this of course but I have been present at a live abortion and I was shocked at how very simple it was and how quickly my friend was able to recover. This was a girl who, if she had been unable to obtain an abortion, she would have either killed herself or tried to terminate her pregnancy herself. Now Carrie, that would have been a grisly scene and one where not only the fertilized egg died, my friend might have died as well.

There are lots of violent, grisly scenarios that we can put forth. None of us really wants to think about the women here - except maybe Butch and me and a few others. The focus of this discussion has been on the aborted fetus because it is what can be used to turn this discussion into a gut wrenching, heart string pulling, sad, sad, sad thing.

For a woman who cannot live through taking an unwanted, unplanned pregnancy to term, abortion is far from a sad thing. It is a procedure that is simple, safe, and life SAVING!

[JoJoBanana 0]

"until i walk trough the shoe's of a killer" well I don't need to walk in the shoes of anyone to know that it is a desision that should not be made. But if it is made, cause we all make mistakes. then there should be some law that would make it not as easy to get and make you not want to get one!

DEAD BABIES IN DUMPSTERS - DEAD BABIES IN TRASH CANS- DEAD BABIES IN THE TOILETS AT THE PROM~~MUCH MORE HUMANE DON T YA THINK.!!??

UNTIL WE TEACH BIRTH CONTROL~LEARN MORALS~AND VALUE LIFE-THIS IS A VALID OPTION.....

WHY ARE WE OVERSEAS ADOPTING UNKNOWN PROBLEMS INSTEAD OF EDUCATING OUR CHILDREN AND REFORMING OUR DRUG MAMAs??

[mtnman428 1]

I agree with BJean and JoJoBananas! Many abortions are done early term, and I'm pretty sure, are not as gruesome as that video made it out to look. I watched the video and it did not change my mind to be pro-choice. There are laws against when it is too late to abort, so an "alive baby" was already taken into consideration for the time limit within the law. Let's not go backwards with our rights (and freedoms)here people. Everyone should worry about themselves and stop trying to interfere in other people's right to choose what is best for themselves. There are much worse things happening in this world to be concentrating on than reversing a law that has already been made, or more importantly, reversing the right for woman to make their own decision about their body!

[gadgetlady 4]

Senator Obama does not want to withhold medical care from babies who are born alive. You are putting your own (or whoever convinced you of it) spin on Senator Obama's vote. His vote was not about killing babies. His vote was based on whether an additional medical professional should be mandated to be present when a baby is born alive after an abortion.

You are 100% wrong. Watch this video -- there are no gruesome photos of unborn babies as you've said so many times that you hate to watch. Just watch it. 5 minutes out of your day. This is the nurse who testified about this matter in front of Obama.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIdbYjmbFzo]YouTube - I Invented the Internet (Ep. 4: Kill and Destroy)[/ame]

Edited August 28, 2008 by gadgetlady

[gadgetlady 4]

I was once prochoice, but after watching and learning how an abortion is actually preformed, how violent it is, I have to say, it has really made me think twice. Like I said in an earlier post, I think if more people actually saw it and knew how it was done, a lot more people would change their minds. And it has nothing to do with politics.

:smile2: Thank you for posting that, Carrie. Most people are woefully unaware of what the actual abortion procedure is all about, and of fetal development at the stage when abortions are performed -- and when they learn the facts, they often change their minds on the matter. I agree that it has nothing to do with politics. I also believe it has nothing to do with religion. There are many atheists and agnostics that are pro-life, simply due to biology.

[gadgetlady 4]

The videos you watch that are horribly gruesome and violent are as far as I'm concerned an exaggeration of the truth. An abortion (early in the pregnancy) is a simple procedure.

How can a video showing an actual abortion being performed be an exaggeration of the truth. If it's "horribly gruesome and violent" then perhaps the procedure is "horribly gruesome and violent"?

The video Carrie referred to earlier in this thread is a first trimester abortion. If she found that compelling enough to sway her view, I can't begin to imagine what a second trimester video would have had her thinking.

[gadgetlady 4]

DEAD BABIES IN DUMPSTERS - DEAD BABIES IN TRASH CANS- DEAD BABIES IN THE TOILETS AT THE PROM~~MUCH MORE HUMANE DON T YA THINK.!!??

UNTIL WE TEACH BIRTH CONTROL~LEARN MORALS~AND VALUE LIFE-THIS IS A VALID OPTION.....

See, the thing is, abortion doesn't prevent dead babies in toilets at the prom. Abortion is legal and we still have this happening. It's not because abortion wasn't available to them. I believe it's precisely because abortion was available to them that we have this issue. You see, if it's legal to abort through 9 months of pregnancy, what's the difference between the unborn baby and the born baby, but for a few days and passage through the birth canal?

Do you really think we don't teach birth control? Do you really thing birth control isn't readily available to anyone who wants it? Because it is, and it has been for years. And it hasn't stopped abortion.