who supports right to choose

[tink128 0]

My opposition to banning abortion is based on the idea that the government can interfere in a woman's life.

This right to rule a woman's life is is based on the belief of some people, that the government should control a woman by telling her what she must do under any (or practically any) circumstances in the event that she becomes pregnant.

Some people believe that it is correct for the government to intervene in women's lives because it may protect the life of the fetus. In fact they believe that in each and every case of pregnancy, a woman should be forced to continue the pregnancy, no matter what the circumstances or conditions are that could endanger the life of the woman. (Although some believe that certain exceptions should be permitted, i.e., rape or incest.)

The people who believe in taking women's right's away in this matter, want to be the decider in any and all cases. This faith driven belief is understandable since they believe that they are saving lives. Innocent lives. However that belief is not shared by everyone and not even shared by some scientific studies. There is huge controversy surrounding when life begins. But that is not the issue as far as I am concerned.

The issue is that the government is a faceless entity, that has no powers of reason or reasonable thought or ability to determine whether the fate of the woman is truly in jeopardy or not. It is unconscionable for us to think that it is right or fair for this horrendous decision to be put into the hands of the government.

In fact, a decision of this magnitude, of this importance, of this complexity, of this extremely personal nature, has no business being made by the goverment, the right to lifers or religious leaders or the Pope or anyone else but the people who are directly involved.

Some of you say that you have no desire to take women's rights away but that is exactly what you are wanting to do. You are wanting to make this hugely personal and life changing decision for all women to in effect, be yours. Never mind the situation or the people who are actually involved. You believe that you are saving lives and that saving the life of a baby trumps everything.

If your issue is truly to save lives, then I say go help these women you want to control. Help provide thousands and thousands of women the needed education about sex and birth control. For those who unintentionally become pregnant, convince them that you have a way to save their lives and the lives of their babies. Then come through on your promises.

Once you do that, and you have provided clear and meaningful ways to help the thousands of women who find themselves in the unfortunate circumstance of not being able to handle an unwanted and unplanned pregnancy, then you will be able to actually back up your beliefs in a very real and viable way. Thousands of babies lives will be spared due to your assistance. It will be a new day in this country and one where we can all hold our heads up high, a day where no one is casting aspersions on the unfortunate women who are pregnant without any kind of support. Those women who are desperate and in deep dispair. Yes, lives can be saved.

But if you believe that making abortion illegal will stop all the abortions, you are wrong. It will prevent some abortions and save some lives, but they will be a drop in the bucket compared to what the number is that you could save if you actually worked out financial, educational and practical ways to help all of these women. Organize a movement. You can even get the government involved. You can help women and save unborn babies and both will save lives. Outlawing abortion does not accomplish what you say that you want.

We know that. We've seen the babies in trash cans. We've seen women who have committed suicide when abortion was illegal and was not readily attainable. We've seen the millions of cases of horrible child abuse heaped on innocent children by the emotionally unstable parents of children who were not wanted.

Let's get real and help women. Let's stop treating pregnant women like they are carrying a commodity that the government can make decisions about. If you really want to save lives, this is how you'll do it. If you just want to control women and make them do your bidding, with utterly no regard for their personal circumstances, then keep on opposing women's rights. Keep on trying to make the medical procedure of abortion illegal.

Points very well taken BJean. I do agree that we (the prolife movement)need to be more involved at the personal level to make adoption an easier and less expensive process in this country. If it was I think this would be a huge benefit for those women who may consdier an abortion as their only option because it is more convenient and less expensive. So lets take the advice pro-lifers right from the mouth of the other side and get active! I think those were alot of really great suggestions BJean! Thank you for your insight!

[gadgetlady 4]

Points very well taken BJean. I do agree that we (the prolife movement)need to be more involved at the personal level to make adoption an easier and less expensive process in this country. If it was I think this would be a huge benefit for those women who may consdier an abortion as their only option because it is more convenient and less expensive. So lets take the advice pro-lifers right from the mouth of the other side and get active! I think those were alot of really great suggestions BJean! Thank you for your insight!

Pro-life pregnancy counseling centers, generally staffed and run 100% by volunteers (including the doctors and nurses) and 100% free, dramatically outnumber abortion clinics in the US (remember that the abortion clinics are a huge profit-making enterprise and these pro-life centers are funded by donations and run by volunteers). Any pro-life center will offer to any pregnant woman, free, resources to keep her baby (along with this, these centers provide clothing, baby items, formula, etc.) or arrange for adoption. There are thousands of homes for unwed mothers set up across the country. These organizations just simply don't get the "press" that Planned Parenthood does. Believe me, pro-lifers are NOT doing nothing. They do put their money (and their feet and their lives) where their mouth is.

Edited July 4, 2008 by gadgetlady

[BJean 16]

tink, I appreciate the positive feedback.

It occurred to me while posting on this thread that we're probably all very good people, with honorable intentions. Yet we seem to lose it over this extremely derisive issue. The whole country is at odds over it. And maybe we have never really tried to solve the real problem. We've just argued about the perceived problem.

I believe that we actually could work together to bring about a real change in our thinking and our approach to the problem. We could serously help women and children if we worked together instead of fighting each other. Let's face it. We are never going to help those who need the help if we just dig in our heels and continue the bitterness toward each other.

tink, you're a good example of how it can come about!

[gadgetlady 4]

I may have my own opinion for my personal choices but I've always felt that I have no right to impose my morality on anyone else. I suppose that makes me pro-choice. I don't feel it's my place to tell anyone what is right or wrong for them.

We, as a society, impose our morality on other people every day. We say it is wrong and punishable to break into someone's house and steal their stuff. What if the robber's morality say there's nothing wrong with that? I know this might sound like a ridiculous example, but think it through. Laws are made when one individual's rights impede on another individual's rights. The question is not whether we have the right to impose morality on others (which we do all the time), but whether this particular act is objectionable because it interferes with the baby's right to life.

Only the woman in that circumstance should be allowed to make that choice. I will say, however, that I feel that the father should have some rights there. If the mother doesn't want to keep the child, the father should be given the option of keeping the child before the decision of an abortion is made.

It's interesting to me that you call the mother a mother, the father a father, and the child a child. Why do you believe there are circumstances where it is acceptable for a mother to kill her child? Do we own our children and are we allowed to treat them as property and dispose of them as we wish?

Interestingly, the other day I read the California Statutes about murder -- remember, of course, that in California abortion was legal BEFORE Roe v. Wade, so California is known for its liberal abortion laws. In California, murder is defined this way:

"Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought."

Hmmm. So EVEN IN LIBERAL CALIFORNIA, killing a fetus is murder. NOTE the law doesn't say the fetus isn't a human being, but it specifically says killing a fetus is equivalent to killing any other human being. But then there are the exceptions.

"This section shall not apply to any person who commits an act which results in the death of a fetus if . . . the act was solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to by the mother of the fetus."

I was actually quite surprised when I read this statute, because what it does is implicity defines abortion as murder, but then it specifically grants the right to murder to the mother. If the fetus is not a human being, shouldn't the murder statute exclude that supposed non-human being completely, rather than defining it as a situation in which murder becomes acceptable if it is the parent doing the murdering, soliciting, aiding, abetting, and consenting to another person to assist her in the murder?

[*susan* 1,709]

I will say, however, that I feel that the father should have some rights there. If the mother doesn't want to keep the child, the father should be given the option of keeping the child before the decision of an abortion is made. I just hate the idea of leaving the father out of the equation.

I stay out of this thread most of the time. But, I just had to comment that I am so happy to finally see someone else who recognizes that the father has rights as well. It may be the woman's body, but it is his child as well. He should have a say in what happens.

[gadgetlady 4]

I just had to comment that I am so happy to finally see someone else who recognizes that the father has rights as well. It may be the woman's body, but it is his child as well. He should have a say in what happens.

Let me ask both of you a question. Try to think of this purely logically, with no emotion or attachment to catch-phrases like "freedom of choice", etc. (I'm not saying this isn't an emotional issue, I'm just saying try to divorce yourself from rhetoric so you can think through it logically).

If the thing growing in the womb is not a baby but part of the woman's (mother's) body ("my body, my choice"), why should the man who impregnated her (the father) have any rights whatsoever? If it is truly her body to do with what she wishes, no man, regardless of whether he has had sex with her, can tell her what to do with her body. Alternately, if, as you propose, the man who impregnated her (the father) has rights, to what exactly do his rights pertain? His rights don't pertain to the woman (mother) because no adult has a right to another adult's body. His rights must therefore be connected to something else. They can't be connected to a human being who might later be created (if the fetus isn't a human being yet) because if that were the case, he would have had the equivalent rights prior to the sex act. Therefore, his rights must be connected to something other than the woman (mother); they must be rights to the fetus (child) -- not the right of ownership, but parental rights. If the thing growing in the womb is not a child, he has and should have zero rights because there's nothing there to which to attach rights.

So if you then believe that the thing growing in the womb is a child and the father has certain rights regarding that child, what are the individual rights of the child himself (or herself)? Why is it then ever acceptable for another human being, the mother, to remove the most basic right of all from that child by taking the child's life without the child's consent?

[libra 13]

I've never used the catchphrase "my body, my choice" and don't necessarily believe that phrase truly encompasses how people really feel. I am in no way trying to get into a pissing match with anyone regarding the abortion issue. Everyone has a right to feel the way they feel. I know a man who was in a situation where the mother wanted to terminate the pregnancy and he didn't. He tried to fight it but found he had no legal recourse. I don't feel that's right as the child, fetus, or whatever terminology you care to use, was created by both. I feel that both should have rights regarding the decision of abortion.

I also don't feel it's beneficial to discuss when the fetus is considered a human being. If everyone agreed regarding that point, there wouldn't be any abortion "issue." That too, depends on personal beliefs which is where I feel it should stay...personal.

Let me ask both of you a question. Try to think of this purely logically, with no emotion or attachment to catch-phrases like "freedom of choice", etc. (I'm not saying this isn't an emotional issue, I'm just saying try to divorce yourself from rhetoric so you can think through it logically).

If the thing growing in the womb is not a baby but part of the woman's (mother's) body ("my body, my choice"), why should the man who impregnated her (the father) have any rights whatsoever? If it is truly her body to do with what she wishes, no man, regardless of whether he has had sex with her, can tell her what to do with her body. Alternately, if, as you propose, the man who impregnated her (the father) has rights, to what exactly do his rights pertain? His rights don't pertain to the woman (mother) because no adult has a right to another adult's body. His rights must therefore be connected to something else. They can't be connected to a human being who might later be created (if the fetus isn't a human being yet) because if that were the case, he would have had the equivalent rights prior to the sex act. Therefore, his rights must be connected to something other than the woman (mother); they must be rights to the fetus (child) -- not the right of ownership, but parental rights. If the thing growing in the womb is not a child, he has and should have zero rights because there's nothing there to which to attach rights.

So if you then believe that the thing growing in the womb is a child and the father has certain rights regarding that child, what are the individual rights of the child himself (or herself)? Why is it then ever acceptable for another human being, the mother, to remove the most basic right of all from that child by taking the child's life without the child's consent?

[gadgetlady 4]

I've never used the catchphrase "my body, my choice" and don't necessarily believe that phrase truly encompasses how people really feel.

I disagree. Many have said that or almost exactly that on this thread.

I am in no way trying to get into a pissing match with anyone regarding the abortion issue.

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match either. I'm sorry you misunderstood my post. All I'm saying is I'm trying to approach this with a logical thought process, not emotion.

I know a man who was in a situation where the mother wanted to terminate the pregnancy and he didn't. He tried to fight it but found he had no legal recourse. I don't feel that's right as the child, fetus, or whatever terminology you care to use, was created by both. I feel that both should have rights regarding the decision of abortion.

He is not alone.

And yet I ask, on what basis does a man derive his rights? What do you want him to have rights to, specifically? He can't have the right to decide what a woman does with her own body, so then you must be saying that there is something other than her body there. That's what I'm getting at.

I also don't feel it's beneficial to discuss when the fetus is considered a human being. If everyone agreed regarding that point, there wouldn't be any abortion "issue." That too, depends on personal beliefs which is where I feel it should stay...personal.

Whether the fetus is a human being is the crux of the matter. If he/she/it is a human being, then "personal beliefs" about the matter have no consequence. One person shouldn't get to decide for another person when his or her life begins or whether his or her life is worthy of continuing. What if my "personal beliefs" were that a human being's life didn't begin until age 5 and therefore I could kill my toddler if she annoyed me. Would you then stand on the "personal beliefs" defense and defend my right to kill my toddler because I don't agree with you as to when human life begins, or would you say there are certain things that define human life and since my toddler meets those requirements I have no right to take her life?

Do you see what I'm getting at here? We don't make laws based on nebulous beliefs or personal preference, especially laws surrounding the essential rights we hold dear. The laws should be based on clear, consistent, logical thought -- and right now they're not.

[*susan* 1,709]

When I found out I was pregnant, I did not think of what was growing inside me in terms of a fertilized egg, fetus or anything else. It was our baby, our child, pure and simple. Aborting a child would never, in a million years be a consideration for me. It is just not something I would do, especially knowing how many couples are out there that cannot conceive and would love to have that child if for whatever reason I chose not to keep it.

However, that is my personal belief, and one that I believe strongly in. But, I don't believe I have the rights to impose my beliefs on others. They feel just as strongly about what they feel is right as I do about what I feel is right. Just as I don't want them forcing their beliefs on me, I refuse to force mine upon them. I may not agree with their choice, but I will defend their right to make that choice.

As far as the father goes, I too knew a man who got a woman pregnant. She had an abortion and did not even tell him she was pregnant until after the abortion. He was devastated. He would have happily taken responsibility for and raised the child. There were no risks for the mother had she carried the child to full term. She just didn't want it and disposed of it without any consideration for the father. It may be her body, but it is both of their's child. He had as much to do with the creation of it as she did. The father has just as much right to determine what the outcome of the pregnancy will be. He should not be punished just because he is male and not created to be able to carry a child himself. I don't feel like an abortion should be performed without the father's consent as well as the mother's. Of course, if we are talking about rape or something, that is entirely a different story.

[tink128 0]

Pro-life pregnancy counseling centers, generally staffed and run 100% by volunteers (including the doctors and nurses) and 100% free, dramatically outnumber abortion clinics in the US (remember that the abortion clinics are a huge profit-making enterprise and these pro-life centers are funded by donations and run by volunteers). Any pro-life center will offer to any pregnant woman, free, resources to keep her baby (along with this, these centers provide clothing, baby items, formula, etc.) or arrange for adoption. There are thousands of homes for unwed mothers set up across the country. These organizations just simply don't get the "press" that Planned Parenthood does. Believe me, pro-lifers are NOT doing nothing. They do put their money (and their feet and their lives) where their mouth is.

I am aware of this and have been involved with pregnancy centers and prolife rally's but it still doesnt change the fact that adoption in this country and abroad is very expensive. We do have to lobby laws that will prevent attorneys from charging exhorbitant rates to couples who are willing to provide a loving home for children. Without this change couples will not be able to adopt those babies that we are encouraging women to have and thus the women will be discouraged out of giving their babies up with the fear they will not have a good home or any at all! My husband and I have been in the adoption process for 18 months its expensive and a very difficult process! I do believe like you though that the press is one sided favoring planned parenthood and birth control over these wonderful organizations. Its very good to be as passionate about what you believe GadgetLady but what I have learned is if we listen we can learn alot from what the other side says that can better our position in helping women and children. I commend you for your willingness to defend this issue. I share your passion!

[tink128 0]

When I found out I was pregnant, I did not think of what was growing inside me in terms of a fertilized egg, fetus or anything else. It was our baby, our child, pure and simple. Aborting a child would never, in a million years be a consideration for me. It is just not something I would do, especially knowing how many couples are out there that cannot conceive and would love to have that child if for whatever reason I chose not to keep it.

However, that is my personal belief, and one that I believe strongly in. But, I don't believe I have the rights to impose my beliefs on others. They feel just as strongly about what they feel is right as I do about what I feel is right. Just as I don't want them forcing their beliefs on me, I refuse to force mine upon them. I may not agree with their choice, but I will defend their right to make that choice.

As far as the father goes, I too knew a man who got a woman pregnant. She had an abortion and did not even tell him she was pregnant until after the abortion. He was devastated. He would have happily taken responsibility for and raised the child. There were no risks for the mother had she carried the child to full term. She just didn't want it and disposed of it without any consideration for the father. It may be her body, but it is both of their's child. He had as much to do with the creation of it as she did. The father has just as much right to determine what the outcome of the pregnancy will be. He should not be punished just because he is male and not created to be able to carry a child himself. I don't feel like an abortion should be performed without the father's consent as well as the mother's. Of course, if we are talking about rape or something, that is entirely a different story.

How come its Ok for the law to be in favor of killing a baby and not protecting them?

[gadgetlady 4]

I am aware of this and have been involved with pregnancy centers and prolife rally's but it still doesnt change the fact that adoption in this country and abroad is very expensive. We do have to lobby laws that will prevent attorneys from charging exhorbitant rates to couples who are willing to provide a loving home for children. Without this change couples will not be able to adopt those babies that we are encouraging women to have and thus the women will be discouraged out of giving their babies up with the fear they will not have a good home or any at all! My husband and I have been in the adoption process for 18 months its expensive and a very difficult process! I do believe like you though that the press is one sided favoring planned parenthood and birth control over these wonderful organizations. Its very good to be as passionate about what you believe GadgetLady but what I have learned is if we listen we can learn alot from what the other side says that can better our position in helping women and children. I commend you for your willingness to defend this issue. I share your passion!

Thanks, tink. I wish there were a way to change the situation with adoption in this country. I have a dear friend who has been trying to adopt for years with no success. I also have another friend who has been taking in foster babies for a few years and the situations with the biological parents are just heart-wrenching. I wish you the best with your desire to adopt.

[mtnman428 1]

I'm confused...I thought that I typed in Lapbandtalk.com, but I somehow stumbled upon an abortion topic!!! Please do tell, what abortion has to do with the Lap Band. Maybe this topic should be posted elsewhere on the internet.

[Devana 0]

Hi gettinn, if you got here from the "Latest Lapband Forum Postings" you probably didn't see that this thread is in the "Rants and Raves, Enter at your own risk" section.

This is the place for gripes and bellyaching as well as debates and it's actually a small part of LBT. There are so many supportive threads here and it's easy to stay on them and avoid R&R if you chose.

All the best on your journey!

[mtnman428 1]

OK thanks for clearing that up then Devana. I will avoid this thread then, it's too deep for me to debate on here! Thanks for the well wishes and you too.