who supports right to choose

[gadgetlady 4]

Okay, I just have to ask...have you seen a baby who was born and survived at 19-20 weeks??? I myself have never heard of such a thing although that doesn't mean that it hasn't happened. What I know is that while my own daughter developed and grew in an incubator for two months , I became close to other parents with NICU babies. Babies born at 24, 25 and even 26 weeks, in real life, who I saw with my own eyes struggled like you would not believe. You couldn't even touch them because it put them into such distress. They had multiple surgeries, frequent episodes of not enough oxygen to their brains and were on the edge between life and death on a weekly and sometimes daily basis. Many ended up blind, deaf, immobile and unable to learn to speak, I see them at our NICU follow up appointments. I have a hard time imagining a baby 5-6 weeks younger surviving. I don't mean to sound as if they aren't worth it, they certainly are but truly the edge of viability is 24 weeks.

Here's recent news on a baby born at 21 weeks 6 days. There are more stories out there and I'd be happy to find some for you if you'd like:

World's Youngest 'Miracle Baby' Beats the Odds

And here's an article citing a British abortionist lobbying to get the British law changed to not allow abortion after 16 weeks:

Why this abortion doctor wants to see time limits reduced to 16 weeks - Telegraph

Remember, in the US abortion is legal through all 9 months of pregnancy.

[pearlygirl 1]

Remember, in the US abortion is legal through all 9 months of pregnancy.

It has been left up to each state to create their own laws...

GENERAL ABORTION BANS

Sixteen states and the District of Columbia have never repealed restrictive laws ruled unconstitutional by Roe v. Wade(AL, AZ, AR, CA, CO, DE, DC, MA, MI, MS, NH, NM, OK, TX, VT, WV, WI). Two states (LA, UT) and the Territory of Guam enacted "test" laws prohibiting most abortions after the Supreme Court's 1989 decision in Webster v. Reproductive Health Services. In 1992, the Court's ruling in Planned Parenthood v. Casey, held that a general abortion ban would fail Constitutional muster under the new "undue burden" test. In 1992 and 1993, respectively, the Court declined to review the cases striking down the laws of Guam and Louisiana. Utah did not appeal a lower court's decision finding its 1991 abortion ban unconstitutional.

POST-VIABILITY ABORTION BANS

Forty states and the District of Columbia have laws banning most post-viability abortions (AL, AZ, AR, CA, CT, DE, FL, GA, ID, IL, IN, IA, KS, KY, LA, ME, MD, MA, MI, MN, MO, MT, NE, NV, NH, NY, NC, ND, OH, OK, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, WA, WI, WY).

PARTIAL-BIRTH ABORTION BANS

At least 18 states (AB, AL, AZ, AK, GA, IN, LA, MS, MT, MI, NE, NJ, OH, RI, TN, SC, SD) have passed laws prohibiting partial-birth or "dilation and extraction" ("D&X") abortion procedures, but in Ohio, Michigan, Nebraska and Arizona, injunctions have enjoined its enforcement. The Ohio injunction has been affirmed by the 6th Circuit. Women’s Medical Professional Corp. v. Voinovich, Nos. 96-3157, 96-3159, 1997 WL 713520 (6 C.A. Nov. 18, 1997.) Utah has banned the procedure (along with saline abortions) after viability.

[gadgetlady 4]

It has been left up to each state to create their own laws...

No, it hasn't. What you've posted is actually misleading. I don't think you intended to mislead; I just think what you took it from was intentionally or unintentionally ambiguous or you just misunderstood it.

Let me break it down:

GENERAL ABORTION BANS

Sixteen states and the District of Columbia have never repealed restrictive laws ruled unconstitutional by Roe v. Wade

Roe (and Doe) are the overriding decisions, even though the restrictive laws in those states are still on the books. The laws are there, but they are ignored and not enforced because after Roe, the states know enforcing them would lead to a legal challenge.

This is particularly evident by the statement

Utah did not appeal a lower court's decision finding its 1991 abortion ban unconstitutional.

In other words, in Utah the existing, "on the books" abortion law that was never repealed was taken through the courts and found unconstitutional.

POST-VIABILITY ABORTION BANS

Forty states and the District of Columbia have laws banning most post-viability abortions

Please note the key word I have highlighted above: "most". According to Doe v. Bolton, the companion case to Roe v. Wade, the state does not have the right to interfere with an abortion if the health of the mother is at stake. The key here is the courts defined "health" to include mental health in the determination of one physician. Since the physician can be the abortionist, this is effectively a loophole big enough to drive a tank through. Interestingly, one of the most notorious late-term (2nd and 3rd trimester) abortionists in this country, George Tiller, is in Kansas, one of the states you listed as "banning" post-viability abortions.

At least 18 states (AB, AL, AZ, AK, GA, IN, LA, MS, MT, , NE, NJ, , RI, TN, SC, SD) have passed laws prohibiting partial-birth or "dilation and extraction" ("D&X") abortion procedures, but in Ohio, Michigan, Nebraska and Arizona, injunctions have enjoined its enforcement.

Banning partial-birth abortions isn't the same thing as banning late-term abortions. It is the ban against one particular barbaric abortion method, D&X, in which the viable baby is delivered feet first, stabbed in the back of the neck, the baby's brains are suctioned out, and then the head is crushed and delivered. It is a method that was developed partly because too many late-term abortions were resulting in live births; with the suctioning of the brains, this "complication" could be avoided.

Other late term methods have not been successfully banned, therefore late-term (2nd and 3rd trimester) abortions are still performed by other methods.

I hope the above is clear and makes sense to you. Since Roe and Doe were decided in 1973, abortion has been legal through all 9 months of pregnancy with few restrictions whatsoever.

[brandyII 9]

Gadget,

I understand your need to push your agenda onto other people, it's your passion which goes hand in hand with the teachings of your religion but do you really think people are that glib about abortions. I don't think people take it as lightly as you presume they do. It's not an easy decision for any woman and it is a pang that she may have for the rest of her life. Why is it you feel the need to badger on and on about this. They are still legal in the United States and in some ways I'm glad because there are a lot of people out there who should not be parenting children. I'm sure you find this a horrible statement to make but I'd rather a fetus be aborted than brought into a household and not loved or wanted or violated in some way.

[gadgetlady 4]

Gadget,

I understand your need to push your agenda onto other people, it's your passion which goes hand in hand with the teachings of your religion but do you really think people are that glib about abortions. I don't think people take it as lightly as you presume they do. It's not an easy decision for any woman and it is a pang that she may have for the rest of her life. Why is it you feel the need to badger on and on about this. They are still legal in the United States and in some ways I'm glad because there are a lot of people out there who should not be parenting children. I'm sure you find this a horrible statement to make but I'd rather a fetus be aborted than brought into a household and not loved or wanted or violated in some way.

{sigh} If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times, but I'll say it again. My choice of religion has nothing to do with my position on abortion. I was pro-life before I was a Christian, and I was strongly active in the pro-life movement before I was a Christian.

Furthermore, you are free to read or not read this thread. It's your choice. I'm not badgering anyone. pearlygirl posted misleading and wholly incorrect information about states' rights, so I corrected that information. It's funny how those of you in favor of abortion pat each other on the back when anyone who agrees with you posts, but when someone who's pro-life posts (currently me), it's "badgering".

Finally, I agree that there are a lot of people out there that should not be parenting children. But pre-emptively dismembering those children isn't the solution. Abortion is the ultimate child abuse.

[brandyII 9]

What religion were you prior to being a Christian if you don't mind me asking?

[gadgetlady 4]

What religion were you prior to being a Christian if you don't mind me asking?

Interesting question. I don't think I've ever been asked before. I would have to say agnostic. Not that it's relevant to this discussion. There are people of all religions (and of no religion) who are pro-life.

[gadgetlady 4]

I read with interest BandedMomx6's link to a webpage entitled "Feminist, Atheist, and Pro-Life" (FEMINIST, PROLIFE AND ATHEIST). In it, she recounts the following story:

I had a friend who was for many years proabortion. I was able to talk about the issue calmly with her. I never expected her to agree with me and she never expected me to agree with her. However, we were friends and so why shouldn't we discuss such an important and relevant issue? One summer, a robin nested in a hanging basket on her balcony. She was constantly worried about her "babies." Would they hatch out all right, would the apartment cats get them, would they fall prematurely out of the basket? While voicing her concerns to her boyfriend, he imagined the horrified robin parents during a windstorm forecast for that evening losing egg after egg to the concrete balcony. "Splat! Tweet! Splat! Tweet!" he joked. "That's not funny," she retorted. "Why not?" he asked mildly, "They're just eggs." "No," my friend replied, "They're babies. Oh!" My friend told me the next day that that "Oh!" signified her sudden realization that she no longer agreed with abortion. Abortion too involved babies.

My pro-life epiphany came much easier to me. I first heard what abortion was when I was in high school. The school paper was running a series of pro-con articles about controversial subjects. When I read the pro- argument for abortion, I thought it was the most ridiculous thing I'd ever heard. Of course what was growing in the womb was a baby, and of course killing it was killing another human being. I didn't consult a priest, rabbi, pastor, "mother earth", God, god, or gods to make the decision. It was as obvious as the nose on my face. It had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with basic human rights.

Later, when I was a teacher I heard the elementary school students talking about the fetuses in jars that they had in the biology lab of the upper school students. One said to another, "Did you see the babies in those jars? Did you know that some women are allowed to take their babies out of their bellies before they're ready, and the babies die?" Kids get it. They're a heck of a lot closer in age and circumstance to those being aborted.

Did you know it's illegal to destroy a fertilized eagle egg in the US? Interesting that unborn eagles have more rights than unborn human babies.

[pearlygirl 1]

That may not have been the most current listing but it IS up to the individual states discretion. I understand that these laws could potentially be challenged. Regardless, here is the current Nebraska law.

Code Section71-6901, et seq.; 28-325 to 347

Statutory Definition of Illegal Abortion - Act, procedure, device, or prescription administered to a woman to produce premature expulsion, removal, or termination of the human life within the womb of the pregnant woman unless the child's viability is threatened by continuation of the pregnancy

Statutory Definition of Legal Abortion - Before viability or if woman is victim of abuse or neglect or if the M.D. has certification in writing that the continued pregnancy is a threat to woman's life

HealthPenalty for Unlawful AbortionClass III misdemeanor: M.D. who performs abortion in violation of any standards

Consent Requirements - Unemancipated woman under 18 yrs. old or incompetent requires at least 48 hr. written notice to a parent or guardian by delivery or certified mail; court may waive requirements if find woman is mature; parent may authorize abortion in writing; voluntary and informed consent of woman 24 hours before abortion, except in emergency

Residency Requirements for Patients-Physician Licensing RequirementsLicensed M.D.

Edited June 3, 2008 by pearlygirl

[pearlygirl 1]

I know I should leave well enough alone, I just can't - lol!! I am bothered by the fact that you are trying so hard to make it sound as if women 8 months pregnant are lining up in abortion clinics around the US. I know there is an exception to every rule but come on! You have to know that it is not typical that women over the gestational age of viability are aborting as a form of birth control. Doctors always have their own discretion to rely on as well. ALWAYS.

Like I said before, the statistics are disappointing. I myself wish the laws were a bit different than they are. It just isn't up to you(or me) to decide for anyone or anything other than your own body, your own uterus and your own child.

[BJean 16]

All this back and forth on viability is exactly why it does not matter to me one whit when someone, anyone, decides when a baby is viable. Not that viability is unimportant. It definitely is important. However, it has nothing to do with my belief that the impregnanted woman should be in charge of this singularly personal decision.

I believe this for many, many reasons way too numerous to list here. It is all too complicated for this to be a decision that is made for every single woman, in every single situation, at the hands of a segment of the population that believes that only they have the right to decide. And even if it weren't complicated, it is not a decision that I believe should ever be made by one individual for another, with one exception being if the woman is incapacitated and incapable of making any decisions regarding her health. Then I believe her family, with the advice of her doctor, can and should make the decision.

This is an extremely personal and extremely important question that only presents itself to women and only in certain cases of pregnancy. You cannot hold yourself up to be the one who gets to intervene in a woman's life and force her to do what you think is right for her. Only she should have the right to make the decision whether or not she is able to have a baby.

Only she should be the one who decides if and when she chooses to have sex. But that is often not the case. Sometimes women do not get to be in control of their sexual activity. Sometimes they are forced to have sex and sometimes it can even be at the hands of a relative or their significant other. That is one (and only one of many) reasons why a woman should be the ultimate "decider" when it comes to this potentially life threatening, definitely life changing, and pobably life enhancing decision.

Most of the anti-choice movement's activities stem from and are funded by churches and religious people. Most of the extreme anti-choice lobby is funded by extremists. The fact that gadget is not a person who is influenced by religion regarding this question does not alter the fact that churches are behind the fundamental drive to take this decision away from women and appoint themselves as the decision makers for all women.

I believe they are wrong. I believe that women are quite able to decide for themselves what they are capable of when it comes to dealing with having been impregnated against their wishes. God made us this way for good reason and He trusts us to do the right thing. We do not need other fallible human beings sitting in judgment and involving themselves in women's God given right to personal choice when it comes to procreation.

[BJean 16]

gadget, I am glad that you shared your stories of what caused your epiphany and helped you form your beliefs on this issue. I think you are just as entitled to your beliefs and to act on your epiphany as I am.

My epiphany was far different from yours. I grew up when abortion was still illegal. I saw two members of my highschool cheerleading team deal with pregnancies very differently. I witnessed first-hand the heartache and the aftermath of their polar opposite decisions. Then later I became friends with a young female attorney who shared her very personal, heartbreaking story with me. And again when a friend of a good friend of mine had to deal with the shock, shame and terror of an unwanted pregnancy at the hands of her rapist. And again after abortion became legal and my best friend's daughter became pregnant after her college boyfriend football player forced himself on her when he had been drinking. Because she was able to get a safe, quick, legal abortion, she was able to disengage herself from that abusive relationship, get her degree and meet and marry a wonderful, loving, caring man who has fathered two beautiful children with her.

This is not all about the baby in a jar in a lab. It is not all about the wind blowing a bird's egg out of a nest or the prized egg of an endangered species. It is about women and women's lot in life. It is not simple. There is absolutely more than one correct choice to be made.

You have every right, and I deeply respect that right, to your beliefs and to practice those beliefs. I have every right to mine. I hope that one day you can learn how to respect my beliefs because I believe that there is room enough for both of us in this world. I believe that what is right for you AND me can be right for millions of other women. But they have to be able to make their own choices based on their own beliefs.

[gadgetlady 4]

That may not have been the most current listing but it IS up to the individual states discretion.

No, it is NOT up to the individual states' discretion. ROE IS THE LAW OF THE LAND! There is not a state in the nation that does not allow abortion up to 9 months of pregnancy.

Due to Doe v. Bolton, EVERY SINGLE STATE which has laws about 3rd trimester abortions MUST have a health exception, which exception is defined to include the mental health of the mother in the determination of one physician.

It's clear to me that you don't LIKE to hear this information, but it is REALITY.

[gadgetlady 4]

I know I should leave well enough alone, I just can't - lol!! I am bothered by the fact that you are trying so hard to make it sound as if women 8 months pregnant are lining up in abortion clinics around the US. I know there is an exception to every rule but come on! You have to know that it is not typical that women over the gestational age of viability are aborting as a form of birth control. Doctors always have their own discretion to rely on as well. ALWAYS.

I don't know why you are bothered by the facts either (I know why I'm bothered by them: because abortion takes a human life). I never said mothers 8 months pregnant are "lining up", but the reality is that abortion IS legal until 9 months of pregnancy. And the reality is that the doctor = the abortionist.

I did a quick search, and in 2000, the CDC reported 8,826 abortions performed in the US after 21 weeks (Abortion Surveillance --- United States, 2000). That's roughly 25 per day. The CDC numbers are known to be underreported (some believe dramatically underreported), but even if you take 25 per day as gospel truth, it's not an insignificant number. Imagine if a different type of serial killer were murdering children at the rate of 25 per day in the US -- there would be a manhunt like no other in history.

However, all that being said, this shouldn't bother you if you believe that a mother is the one who gets to define when life begins for her child. Who are you to question her definition?

Like I said before, the statistics are disappointing. I myself wish the laws were a bit different than they are.

I'm a little confused -- how do you wish the laws were different? Do you want them to be more restrictive or less restrictive?

It just isn't up to you(or me) to decide for anyone or anything other than your own body, your own uterus and your own child.

You're spot on on two out of three. It isn't up to anyone else to decide for my body or my uterus; I should have the right to do anything I want to my own body so long as another human being is not involved. But I do not own my children, and I never did. I am legally precluded from any number of things that endanger their lives; I should have been legally precluded from killing them prior to their births as well.

[pearlygirl 1]

Okay, I am going to have to bow out here. It is very evident as stated by several people prior that your agenda is to twist the facts into whatever it is that you're trying to prove. I feel as if I am trying to reason with a child(NOT intended to insult your intelligence, more like the passion in your beliefs).

Once again, it is up to the state to decide(which is why people travel to another state where they can have a later term abortion) and also as I stated previously, I know there are acceptions to every rule. Still, most states do not perform post viability abortions without strong medical necessity in terms of the mother's health. In many of those situations the baby is delivered emergently and treated as well.

As far as wishing the laws were a bit different, I do wish they were more strict and specifically after viability that there would be no acception other than saving the mother's life.

Thanks for a good debate...I wish you well.