who supports right to choose

[BandedMomX6 1]

I agree, BandedMom. We do women such a disservice when we tell them the best way to handle their unexpected motherhood is to kill their children. We can do so much better than that. Are you familiar with the group "Feminists for Life"? Feminists for Life - Women Deserve Better

I had not heard of them... I'll check them out.

[BJean 16]

Sucked back in... dang.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea that making abortion illegal is empowering to women. I do agree that the men sperm doners should take the reponsibility for their actions instead of just the women having all of the responsibility (as in so many cases). But I do not believe that men should be making choices for women about their pregnancies, no matter what the circumstances. How one can see that as empowering to women I'll never understand.

laurend and Tommy, I have a really difficult time understanding the logic sometimes of the anti-choice side of this debate too.

Pro-choice people are accused of being harsh, but I believe that anti-choice people are often very harsh. It obviously depends upon your beliefs and the framework of your ideas on this issue. We need to be more tolerant on both sides because we all have feelings and beliefs and we need to be able to state them without being accused of harshness just because we disagree with each other.

I knew I was correct in not using names when I disagreed with the content of posts, but I allowed myself to be goaded into a cat fight. Not pretty and I apologize to all the readers. :smile2:

[missy4gordon 0]

Pro-choice people are accused of being harsh, but I believe that anti-choice people are often very harsh. It obviously depends upon your beliefs and the framework of your ideas on this issue. We need to be more tolerant on both sides because we all have feelings and beliefs and we need to be able to state them without being accused of harshness just because we disagree with each other.

You say we should be able to state our beliefs without being accused of being harsh, yet that is exactly what you just did, accused pro-life people of being, and I quote ".....often very harsh...."

Hmmmm.......????

[BJean 16]

This is a little dated, but well..... Duh.

[ELENATION 0]

I agree that we could be more tolerant towards each other when debating this issue, as it is so personal and our emotions get involved easily.

As far as going into the "what ifs" I don't see anything wrong with that, the "what ifs" are addressed by both sides all the time and I believe they actually provide additional information to all the dynamics of this issue and on BOTH sides. "What ifs" are necessary in any debate in my opinion.

[BJean 16]

Elenation that's a good point. I agree. But I do think it makes sense to keep it at least a little logical if we can. Otherwise it can be so far out that it appears to be used just to enrage the opposition, not really for purposes of true debate. Both sides have to understand when the opposition goes too far and suggests extreme and illogical scenarios, and that we need to try very hard to take them for what they are. By the same token, we should all understand that we are going to get called on it if we choose to go to such extremes.

Of course that's my left sided thinking talking and I realize that many people disagree with me on this. Which btw, is perfectly acceptible and okay with me. For what that's worth. :smile2:

[missy4gordon 0]

This is a little dated, but well..... Duh.

Allllriiiighty then....

:huh2: :confused2:

[ELENATION 0]

I hear you, I know what you mean BJean, what I was thinking is that a few days ago I posted that in my opinion, if we all from both sides could agree when life begins, then that would be the key to pretty much end the whole debate because if both sides could agree with that, neither the pro-choice side would want to end a life when it's proven to them that it is a human being, nor the pro-life side would have a problem with an abortion having proof that life begins at... say 12 weeks, or 20 weeks... or whatever the case might be, (that was just an example) and I remember when I posted that ,I thought that I was right on, but Luluc brough up the point of the "what ifs" which she thought would come into play even if both sides could agree on when life begins... "what ifs" such as rape, or incest.... which I thought it was a very good point, so that's why I thought the the "what ifs" are important, I think they help not to miss any detail/points.

Edited April 30, 2008 by ELENATION

[luluc 6]

,I thought that I was right on, but Luluc brough up the point of the "what ifs" which she thought would come into play even if both sides could agree on when life begins... "what ifs" such as rape, or incest.... which I thought it was a very good point, so that's why I thought the the "what ifs" are important, I think they help not to miss any detail/points.

yikes - not me:

Originally Posted by ELENATION

Oh Thanks Luluc!

I hear you, I think that the "beginning of life" is the main issue, but you are right it's not the only dynamic, but if at least we could all agree completely on the beginning of life, maybe not all, but I think a lot of people from both sides would end up agreeing at the end..., if I believed that life begins at 12 weeks of gestation and prochoicers believe the same thing, most of us wouldn't approve an abortion after that because we wouldn't want to end a life, except for the what ifs... which are the other dynamics like you said, but the whole issue would be a lot clearer and the differences would be less IMHO.

Originally Posted by luluc

in response to jennie as well:

i can agree it is the beginning of life, absolutely i can. i also understand the "science" vs religious view on this, and for me (& my pro choice view only), it is still someone else's view that i may not share. i might even share some of the same beliefs, however i would never want my value system to be judge & jury over anothers body.

been following at a distance the last few days - there are a LOT of "what if's" but i purposely didn't bring them in because i do find they change the dynamic of the discussion....

chatt away - thought this would die out last night,

[ELENATION 0]

Sorry Luluc:sad: I forgot exactly what you said and realized it now, I still think you did bring up a good point in that post though.

And I still think that the "what ifs" are good to consider and discuss..

Yes, this thread seems to never die... I was away for a few days and it's still alive and kicking...

Edited April 30, 2008 by ELENATION

[BJean 16]

MissyGordon what I said was that I believe that sometimes anti-choice posters are harsh. I went on to say that anti-choice posters often feel that pro-choice people are being harsh. Your subsequent post proves the point I was trying to make. I didn't know what else to say. I do believe that we should probably try to let it roll off our backs and consider the reasons why we sound harsh to each other, instead of getting all het up and using size 50 fonts with numerous exclamation marks or question marks, which do seem to be coming from some rage. As I said, not everyone agrees with me. Do whatever makes you feel better. That's what I try to do.

Elenation that was a great post. Thank you very much. You stated it very well. It's always great to feel like we're on the same page on these threads. That's something at least, right?

[BJean 16]

luluc glad you clarified that. (Btw, I thought it would be dead after last night too. I was hoping...)

I do not believe that it is as simple as defining when life begins. It is much more complicated than that, even though many people believe that when life begins only Mother Nature or God should be in control of what happens. I agree with you about not being judge and jury over others. I would never presume to try to gain control over a woman's womb and inflict my beliefs on her.

As I have said many times, ad nausem in fact, there are many reasons, more than we can come up with here, that women need to be able to make the choice of whether to have a child. One law forcing all women to have all babies is not the answer to this question.

As I have also said, counseling, male support, society's understanding and people not judging others would be a good ways to approach the problem of unwanted pregnancies. But there are situations when medical abortions are warranted and that decision should not be determined by you and me for everyone else.

[missy4gordon 0]

it was hardly size 50 font, i used size 3

i also use additional punctuation frequently

sorry i did not know that doing so would indicate i was in a rage. i haven't been told that before, good to know

[BJean 16]

Only a size 3 font? I always use little bitty fonts at the office and to me it looked like at least a 50. I use a lot of punctuation marks too. No harm, no foul. I did think you were really mad and I hope I was wrong.

Glad we cleared the air - at least I hope we did.

[luluc 6]

Sorry Luluc:sad: I forgot exactly what you said and realized it now, I still think you did bring up a good point in that post though.

And I still think that the "what ifs" are good to consider and discuss..

Yes, this thread seems to never die... I was away for a few days and it's still alive and kicking...

no worries - still enjoy your pleasant perspective, though not 100% on board:wink2:

bjean - if you weren't a 70 something Floridian, i'd swear you were my mom, reading your posts....you type how she speaks on the subject. and she pisses off a fair share of people - she's just pretty darn passionate & it inevitable rubs people the wrong way. but i get ya.

still reading the latest "feminist" article thrown out by gadget - must say something i never thought about....