who supports right to choose

[snuffy65 1]

Now, I never told YOU that you had to confess because you said church goers, go back and read my post if you wish, I said that there were other nicer words to refer to people who attended church.

Sure thats all you said? It wasn't in this thread, but in another.

And this is what you said

Hey, if you feel the need to confess, by all means knock yourself out!, even though I doubt that saying "church goers" will be on the top of your list of confessions.... nah!

I personally thought the words came across a little bit snippy.... but hey, that's just my perception and reading an online post... so no worries...

Sounds to me you are inferring that I sinned worse then calling names without any evidence. Which to my religion in itself is a sin.

Again, all i said originally was the words "church goers" which wasn't pointed to anyone and even admittedly call myself a church goer all the time. Yet with that statement you had to get personal.

I'm not trying to complain about it, because it rolls off my back like Water. Just pointing out your hypocritical rants about people taking personal shots at other people.

Edited April 14, 2008 by snuffy65

[snuffy65 1]

Contributes nothing except "Squawks" and "eeks"?? Who does that?? Seems like we all state our opinions here quite well.... so what or who are you talking about?

Not talking about anyone in particular. I wouldn't want to get personal.

[L8BloomR 1]

LBloom: You are very correct! I remember times when anti-choice participants felt like lone rangers here. The debate does seem to ebb and flow in other ways too.

We all seem to enjoy supporting anyone who has a viewpoint that is similar to our own. And we all seem to feel persecuted when someone with an opposing viewpoint challenges us. Guess it's to be expected.

This has been a very interesting thread to follow. There quite honestly have been good arguments from both sides. I believe it has served to help us all think a little more about what's going on around the country on this topic.

Personally it's been my experience to observe that the more vocal the Christian right wing has become about making abortion illegal, the more hysterical we have become over the years, when defending our beliefs.

Now I know some people who are anti-choice say that their position on this topic has "nothing" to do with their Christian faith, but I have a very difficult time accepting that.

We did not grow up making up our own minds and forming our own belief systems without influences somewhere along the line. There is a history of how the various churches around the globe have defined their stance on abortion. The arguments here against a woman's right to choose do parrot those churches edicts from the pulpit.

I guess it could be a coincidence, but it doesn't seem likely. So when people say that their beliefs on banning a woman's right to choose have nothing to do with their religious faith, I not only wonder how we are expected to buy it, but more importantly I wonder why they want to separate their beliefs about abortion and their religious beliefs. I'm sure there must be a good reason but I just don't get it. :confused2:

BJean: You have stated many times that you are a Christian, yet you are pro-abortion. Why do you have a hard time believing that someone else can be pro-life without it being forced on them through their faith? We all arrive at our beliefs through many means.... religious faith is one important way, yet as you can see by your own situation, one can be similar in faith yet dissimilar in other beliefs. Why should your stand hold more credence then someone else's? If one can honestly be pro-abortion and a Christian, one can also be honestly pro-life and a Christian, as well.

[ELENATION 0]

Sure thats all you said? It wasn't in this thread, but in another.

And this is what you said

Sounds to me you are inferring that I sinned worse then calling names without any evidence. Which to my religion in itself is a sin.

Again, all i said originally was the words "church goers" which wasn't pointed to anyone and even admittedly call myself a church goer all the time. Yet with that statement you had to get personal.

I'm not trying to complain about it, because it rolls off my back like Water. Just pointing out your hypocritical rants about people taking personal shots at other people.

You said that because I didn't think "church goers" was the best choice of words for people who attended church that YOU were going to confession, so I replied to you by saying to go ahead and do it if you wanted to, therefore you took what I said out of context, and how my response "sounded" to you was simply inaccurate and you decided to take it personal. I don't know why you think I'm being hypocritical... I believe I'm being truthful, but it's your right to think whatever you want, although I'm sure you are not going to keep this up since it rolls off your back like water....

[snuffy65 1]

You said that because I didn't think "church goers" was the best choice of words for people who attended church that YOU were going to confession, so I replied to you by saying to go ahead and do it if you wanted to, therefore you took what I said out of context, and how my response "sounded" to you was simply inaccurate and you decided to take it personal. I don't know why you think I'm being hypocritical... I believe I'm being truthful, but it's your right to think whatever you want, although I'm sure you are not going to keep this up since it rolls off your back like Water....

quote from your own sentence!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey, if you feel the need to confess, by all means knock yourself out!, even though I doubt that saying "church goers" will be on the top of your list of confessions.... nah!

Can anyone sane here tell me this wasn't a personal attack? Really?

If so tell me what she really meant?

[L8BloomR 1]

Can someone give me the post #?? Although in my view this should just be dropped as it has become a "she said, she said" kind of thing and will be viewed by each person's personal prism. Why not just let it "roll off your back like water"? Seems like the wisest thing to do to me at this point.

[ELENATION 0]

quote from your own sentence!!!!!!!!!!!

Can anyone sane here tell me this wasn't a personal attack? Really?

If so tell me what she really meant?

Well, I honestly don't care what "anyone" here thinks, I DID NOT mean it as a personal attack, I meant to say that saying the words "church goers" are not a sin, and that there are plenty of things that are wrong that we do, you, me and everyone else that I'm sure are truly sins, that IS what I meant, again, your perception and I don't care who else's perception if it's the same as yours was and is wrong.

Just a few minutes ago you made a comment about parrot being an animal.... bla,bla.... and went on to say that it sounds like "someone that posts here...." well, I believe you were talking about me because I was the only one that was called that word, however when someone asked you, you said that you didn't address it to anyone in particular, it's hard for me to believe you, but if you say you didn't , then that's fine and I accept it. Please don't try to tell me what I actually meant in my previous post, as I won't try to tell you what I think you meant when you posted about a "little parrot" sometimes it's all a matter of perception.

Edited April 14, 2008 by ELENATION

[snuffy65 1]

Can someone give me the post #?? Although in my view this should just be dropped as it has become a "she said, she said" kind of thing and will be viewed by each person's personal prism. Why not just let it "roll off your back like water"? Seems like the wisest thing to do to me at this point.

Exactly my point. It does roll off my back, I just brought it up to show hypocrisy when she rants about personal attacks.

The parrot comment came up because she spent more time repeating someone else and then doing worthless drivel on "personal attacks" and never contributes anything to the actual topic.

Anyways the post is from another thread, but I won't be coming back to this one, because it only seems vindictive people who trying to screw with each other and have no good arguements are on now.

I think they call them forum trolls. Where I come from you just feed trolls waffles. Here you folks go!

(#)(#)(#)

[ELENATION 0]

Can someone give me the post #?? Although in my view this should just be dropped as it has become a "she said, she said" kind of thing and will be viewed by each person's personal prism. Why not just let it "roll off your back like water"? Seems like the wisest thing to do to me at this point.

I'll be happy to... I came back to this thread today as I noticed an e-mail notification showing that Snuffy brought up my name and my posts , so I felt I needed to answer, I believe I have commented to her posts once in the past other than today, never really had much interaction with her, so don't get all the personal attacks and some troll comment she made, even if we look at the dates we joined here, I've been in LBT for a long time, so for someone who joined just a few months ago here to call someone else a troll who posts regularly it's beyond ridiculous and unfair to say the least, the thread has indeed gotten very childish and not worth of further discussion right now, thank you for for the advise, you are a wise woman.

Edited April 14, 2008 by ELENATION

[snuffy65 1]

I'll be happy to... I came back to this thread today as I noticed an e-mail notification showing that Snuffy brought up my name and my posts , so I felt I needed to answer, I believe I have commented to her posts once in the past other than today, never really had much interaction with her, but it has indeed gotten very childish, thank you for for the advise, you are a wise woman.:w00t:

Happy to do what? I seen about 20 of your posts in this thread and either they are agreeing and stroking gadget off or telling other people to "be nice".

Anyways good luck on that whole "stopping the baby killers" thing.

I meant "baby killer" in a non personal way.......:biggrin::biggrin:

[BJean 16]

Oh yes, there are many people who are pro-choice who are Christian. But my remarks were about right wing Christians - the very, very vocal folks who demand that abortion be made illegal.

When I read some of the stuff that is cited here that is actually put out by Christian Right Wing sources, and then we're told that being Christian has nothing to do with their beliefs on the topic, I am confused. I can't help but wonder why people are denying that their church had a big influence on their beliefs.

Are you personally saying that your church has little to do with how you feel about the laws allowing women to choose? Or are you just saying that there are many sources that make up your beliefs on the subject? I am not intending to challenge you, LBloom, I am honestly curious what those sources have been, if that is the case.

I am certainly not the most worldly person here, but it has been my experience that people who are angry enough to insist that women's right to choose should be taken away are the same people who usually state that being a Christian is the single most important thing in their lives - more important in fact, than anything else. That doesn't necessarily make them right wing, but they are often pretty extreme in their beliefs on all the topics that the right wing endorses.

This isn't the first topic where people have denied that their church has influenced them. I don't understand that.

My church has definitely influenced me on the topic. We believe in God, but we believe in people too. We believe that people can make mistakes, even sin, but that they can be forgiven - and not just forgiven by God. We believe that living breathing human beings and their relationships with each other and their interaction in the community are of utmost importance. We do not presume to tell each other how to lead our spiritual lives or even what to believe, we merely support each other in times of need. We believe that not judging each other and loving and forgiving each other is how Jesus wants us to conduct our lives. It's pretty simple, really.

[*susan* 1,709]

Ok folks, lets get back on topic, which is "who supports the right to choose". Enough of the personal attacks. At LBT, we attack the idea, not the person!

[BJean 16]

No worries, Susan. I think that rant and rave is about spent.

We've pretty much all agreed that it's hard not to get personal when the source of the topic is so very personal - and has to do with our very belief system.

[L8BloomR 1]

Oh yes, there are many people who are pro-choice who are Christian. But my remarks were about right wing Christians - the very, very vocal folks who demand that abortion be made illegal.

When I read some of the stuff that is cited here that is actually put out by Christian Right Wing sources, and then we're told that being Christian has nothing to do with their beliefs on the topic, I am confused. I can't help but wonder why people are denying that their church had a big influence on their beliefs.

Are you personally saying that your church has little to do with how you feel about the laws allowing women to choose? Or are you just saying that there are many sources that make up your beliefs on the subject? I am not intending to challenge you, LBloom, I am honestly curious what those sources have been, if that is the case.

I am certainly not the most worldly person here, but it has been my experience that people who are angry enough to insist that women's right to choose should be taken away are the same people who usually state that being a Christian is the single most important thing in their lives - more important in fact, than anything else. That doesn't necessarily make them right wing, but they are often pretty extreme in their beliefs on all the topics that the right wing endorses.

This isn't the first topic where people have denied that their church has influenced them. I don't understand that.

My church has definitely influenced me on the topic. We believe in God, but we believe in people too. We believe that people can make mistakes, even sin, but that they can be forgiven - and not just forgiven by God. We believe that living breathing human beings and their relationships with each other and their interaction in the community are of utmost importance. We do not presume to tell each other how to lead our spiritual lives or even what to believe, we merely support each other in times of need. We believe that not judging each other and loving and forgiving each other is how Jesus wants us to conduct our lives. It's pretty simple, really.

BJean: I have told my story much earlier on in this thread and don't have the time to go over it again, even if anyone here really had the time or inclination to listen.

Suffice it to say that I have come to my beliefs that every human life is sacred due to many factors, of which my religion is one. I see human life as the most important thing in the world, and I believe that handling the tough times in our life, no matter how miserable, can be the catalyst for amazing growth and success. I have seen that we grow more from struggle than through ease and I have seen that thinking only of ourselves or of what is the easiest road to travel can bring much misery. I wish I could put into words better what I am trying to say, but I guess it would be that my faith has taught me that if I handle problems and troubles as they come, and deal with the ramifications of them instead of getting rid of them, I am so much better off. And I am not just talking about myself personally, or even a person believing in God. I mean ANYBODY. Any successful person will tell you that just when they thought things were the worst they could be, they pulled themselves up and achieved great things because of that struggle. The same thing is true, I believe, for the vast majority of woman with an unplanned pregnancy. I have seen just too many times the happiness that comes to a woman later who had wanted an abortion yet didn't have it. The joy at her decision and the delight in the child. Even the ones who gave their babies up for adoption....well, I have not met one who wished she had had an abortion. Yes, I know there are many miserable situations for women and I can only guess at the horror of finding out you are pregnant via rape or incest. I don't think any pro-life person makes light of that situation. But if you believe in the potential of life, the ability to take a tragedy and make something positive out of it, well, you can see why many of us don't think abortion is the only or best way out.

If I could see that abortion makes "every child a planned and wanted child", then I might be swayed. But during my lifetime, I have seen the news go from an occasional story of child abuse (while abortions were illegal) to seeing massive abuse or killings of children now. Why? Wasn't abortion supposed to make children more loved and wanted? Why are there so many mothers doing so many horrendous things to their kids? My take on it is that we have cheapened life. It is disposable and de-valued. I can think of no other explanation. The reasons? We can debate those all day. As a Christian, I think it is because we have lost our faith in something greater than ourselves and that has made us focus only on what WE want NOW.

I don't expect many here to understand or agree with me. I can't help how I feel or what I believe, it is just so deeply TRUE to me and so I continue to express them in hopes someone else will find something there to help them understand. It is also why I can get a bit sensitive when I feel my beliefs are being dismissed as not well-thought-out or deeply held.

Anyway, you asked!! I hope this helps....

[luluc 6]

I have been the lone ranger at this thread from time to time. And I have gotten the wind knocked out of my sails more than once. I want everyone who wants to post at this thread to feel free to do so.

Not the "lone ranger - all the time:smile:", this just gets out of hand at times - and the concept of Choice gets lost. Actually it gets lost most of the time & it is this threads "Theme".

This is a very personal subject for me, and I get frustrated in those that want to bring another thread into this which really is not necessary.

So - flame away, I have no issue w/debating the topic / I take issue with arguing about crap that escapes the actual issue = Choice. However you feel on the matter, my personal opinion STILL is , Keep is Safe & Legal....Lulu