who supports right to choose

[BJean 16]

I did not claim to be in the minority.

I did not say that you were beaten about the head, neck or shoulders or that you should feel like you were.

I really do just speak for myself. I may assume from the content of your posts that you believe something or other, but I can only assume it, not claim it.

There have been numerous people supporting your position here lately. There has only been one person who is strongly supporting my position and one other person that I can recall has pro-choice leanings. Again, I am talking about lately.

I directed my post to snuffy and you chose to respond to it as if I were speaking directly to and about you. I did not direct my post to you or make any claims about you.

I did claim that I was going to sign off and not participate here until and unless things calm down a bit. However I decided that it really was unfair, and yes I feel that word is accurate, for you to challenge me on the content of my post because you decided that it related to you - because it did not.

Please, please, please gadget, let's put this silliness behind us and not direct anymore personal animosity toward one another. It is totally unproductive and besides it undermines both of us and our goals on this thread.

Right now everyone who's reading knows where you stand, and why you hold those beliefs and everyone knows where I stand, and why.

Can't we please just get along?

[gadgetlady 4]

1. Same as what the supreme court says, when the child is no longer Dependant of the mother for sustaining its own life. Think 27 weeks? I think they go from when the lungs are developed.

Abortion is legal through 9 months of pregnancy. Where and when did the court say that human life begins when the child is no longer dependent on the mother?

However you could make the argument to me that life may start when the child develops a heartbeat AND has its circulatory system closed form the mothers. Which would be at 6-8 weeks. However, I will stick with the court's decision.

Will you stick with the court's decision if it changes?

Is the court ever wrong? Has the court ever been historically wrong? Was it wrong in Dred Scott?

3. Black people like every other race shares the same DNA structure. And no, I don't believe because that fertilized egg has the same human dna' that it is human. A dead person has human DNA and if I stabbed one in the head I wouldn't be a murderer.

A dead person is/was human; he is just dead. Because he died doesn't make him non-human. It makes him no longer alive. There are other criteria that define life; DNA is just the one that qualifies that life as HUMAN life.

4. I said bad. That procedure is not the easiest of procedures. A woman could be scarred in the womb making them unable to have kids ever again. Also like most procedures theirs a small chance of death. Which is why I don't support any women who use abortions like their monthly birth control.

Why would you not support any woman who uses abortion like monthly birth control? If she accepts the potential of a scarred womb, infertility, death, etc., and there's nothing otherwise inherently wrong with the procedure, why wouldn't you support a woman having the right to do this?

I see you only want me to give answers that a typical pro lifer would give so you can throw back into my face.

I don't expect you to answer anything like a "typical pro lifer". I'm looking for real answers and trying to get to the core of your beliefs -- and trying to get you to think about why you believe what you believe.

2 of those questions I did answer but you didn't get me in that "gotcha corner.

I must have missed the answers because I don't know which two you're talking about. My hope is that getting you into a "gotcha corner" (whatever that is) led to some introspection and new thought processes. I don't expect to change everyone's mind with one argument or defense or challenge, but my hope is that over time the merits of the pro-life side will be self-evident.

[snuffy65 1]

Abortion is legal through 9 months of pregnancy. Where and when did the court say that human life begins when the child is no longer dependent on the mother?

"The central holding of Roe v. Wade was that abortions are permissible for any reason a woman chooses, up until the "point at which the fetus becomes ‘viable,’ that is, potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid. Viability is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks."The Court also held that abortion after viability must be available when needed to protect a woman's health, which the court defined as broadly in the companion case of Doe v. Bolton. These court rulings affected laws in 46 states."

Will you stick with the court's decision if it changes?

No, I would still be arguing the above decision. However, remember that the supreme court has to consider the Constitution before making a decision. So any changes to the constitution could change me and the judges decision.

Is the court ever wrong? Has the court ever been historically wrong? Was it wrong in Dred Scott?

Sure and yes they were wrong. Doesn't mean the supreme court is wrong now.

A dead person is/was human; he is just dead. Because he died doesn't make him non-human. It makes him no longer alive. There are other criteria that define life; DNA is just the one that qualifies that life as HUMAN life.

What else qualifies a life as human life that would set dead person apart from a live human? A heartbeat? Brain function? A doctor pronounces death when there is no longer a heartbeat for a period of time where the brain would not survive. Which is why earlier I said you could argue that after 6-8 weeks you might consider the fetus alive.

Why would you not support any woman who uses abortion like monthly birth control? If she accepts the potential of a scarred womb, infertility, death, etc., and there's nothing otherwise inherently wrong with the procedure, why wouldn't you support a woman having the right to do this?

I would not make it illegal but like any other semi risky procedure I would rather have them use something else like pills as birth control rather then that. But see the difference between you and me is that I would educate as many woman against the procedure and more towards abstinence and/or birth control but wouldn't arrest anyone when they opted for abortion.

I don't expect you to answer anything like a "typical pro lifer". I'm looking for real answers and trying to get to the core of your beliefs -- and trying to get you to think about why you believe what you believe.

I must have missed the answers because I don't know which two you're talking about. My hope is that getting you into a "gotcha corner" (whatever that is) led to some introspection and new thought processes. I don't expect to change everyone's mind with one argument or defense or challenge, but my hope is that over time the merits of the pro-life side will be self-evident.

A gotcha moment would be like the question about what makes a black person human. Most prochoice people off the cusp would probably say " black people have the same DNA has other human" You would then say "GOTCHA! fertilized eggs have DNA so why aren't they human beings".

It's quite comical because I've been in these arguments alot and the minute you posted the comment about slavery I knew where the gotcha was.

However, your right. Some of your comments have made me think twice. It hasn't changed my mind yet but you never know!

Edited April 3, 2008 by snuffy65

[gadgetlady 4]

"The central holding of Roe v. Wade was that abortions are permissible for any reason a woman chooses, up until the "point at which the fetus becomes ‘viable,’ that is, potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid. Viability is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks."The Court also held that abortion after viability must be available when needed to protect a woman's health, which the court defined as broadly in the companion case of Doe v. Bolton. These court rulings affected laws in 46 states."

But in Doe, the "broad definition" of a woman's health included mental health in the determination of just one physician. Since an abortionist is a physician, this effectively makes abortion legal through 9 months of pregnancy for any reason whatsoever.

Sure and yes they were wrong. Doesn't mean the supreme court is wrong now.

My point is that we shouldn't always blindly accept what is handed down by the court as gospel truth, because they are wrong sometimes. Your answer that you accepted what the court said on this issue begged the question: "Do you always agree with the court and is the court always right?" I guess the real question is "Do you accept what the court says simply because the court says it, or do you have other reasoning that makes you arrive at the same decision?"

What else qualifies a life as human life that would set dead person apart from a live human? A heartbeat? Brain function? A doctor pronounces death when there is no longer a heartbeat for a period of time where the brain would not survive. Which is why earlier I said you could argue that after 6-8 weeks you might consider the fetus alive.

So some people say life happens at birth, some say at viability (which changes with medical technology), some say at the presence of a heartbeat, and some say at conception. The problem is, life is not arbitrary and not contingent on a mental decision by another human being. We have to assume one of these answers is right and the others are wrong; they can't all be right, because the question of when one's life began can't be different for one person than it is for another. In other words, both you and I were a life at the same time in our development. If my mother believed I was a life at conception and yours believed you were a life at viability, both can't be right. Their arbitrary belief doesn't change the facts.

So given that life does in fact begin at some point (you would say as yet undetermined), is it not possible that it begins at conception and therefore we are deliberately ending over 1,300,000 lives every year in America? Add to this the fact that the average abortion is performed at 8-9 weeks, after significant fetal development has taken place (heartbeat, brain waves, all body systems present, some babies are even sucking their thumbs at this point), are you still OK with the possibility that we are committing mass genocide? I consider it a fact, but based on the above reasoning, isn't it at least a possibility for you?

(BTW, the circulatory system is separate from the mother's at 21 days, around the time most mothers find out they're pregnant, and long before 6-8 weeks. Brain waves have been recorded at 42 days.)

A gotcha moment would be like the question about what makes a black person human. Most pro lifers off the cusp would probably say " black people have the same DNA has other human" You would then say "GOTCHA!" fertilized eggs have DNA so why aren't they human.

Fertilized eggs ARE human. They're certainly not anything else. They're not frogs or crickets or bananas. Once that is established, you then have to proceed to the question of whether they're life.

However, your right. Some of your comments have made me think twice.

I'm glad. You've challenged me, too. I am a big believer in education and some of the things we've discussed have never entered some peoples' minds. It is only through fleshing these things out that we learn.

[TommyO 5]

Just a brief note about why many people choose to read and not express an opinion on this thread. Speaking specifically for myself I refuse to debate such a complex issue with anyone who beleives that the flood happened and Noah marched the animals two by tow onto an ark. I mean c'mon how could you possibly expect any sort of logical discusion.

Oh by the way how many people do you think God drowned in the big flood and what if some of them were pregnant. I guess it's only ok to kill unborn babies if your God!!!

[gadgetlady 4]

Just a brief note about why many people choose to read and not express an opinion on this thread. Speaking specifically for myself I refuse to debate such a complex issue with anyone who beleives believes that the flood happened and Noah marched the animals two by tow two onto an ark. I mean c'mon how could you possibly expect any sort of logical discusion.?

Oh by the way how many people do you think God drowned in the big flood and what if some of them were pregnant.? I guess it's only ok to kill unborn babies if your you're God!!!

Oh, sorry. I have such a hard time reading your logical and well thought out posts without taking a mental red pen to them to correct your grammar and misspellings. But of course, I know I'm no match for your mental prowess on this or any issue. Just go right on continuing to not express your opinion. I'm fine with that, as I know precisely why you don't share your thoughts.

[plain 12]

Why is such a thing an impossibility, Tommy O?

[TommyO 5]

Please continue to correct my spelling I know how important that sort of thing must be to someone withy such a narrow, right wing perspective.

Did God tell you why I don't share my thoughts? it would seem that is the only way you could "know precisely" why I choose not to share them. Or is it just that you have a bit of a God complex yourself?

I have a question for you, is there only one true religion and if yes are all other religions wrong?

[missy4gordon 0]

Please continue to correct my spelling I know how important that sort of thing must be to someone withy such a narrow, right wing perspective.

Did God tell you why I don't share my thoughts? it would seem that is the only way you could "know precisely" why I choose not to share them. Or is it just that you have a bit of a God complex yourself?

I have a question for you, is there only one true religion and if yes are all other religions wrong?

I know this wasn't directed at me but I have to say something....

This is my Belief....as long as you have truly accepted Christ as your savior and he lives in your heart, you are saved. You will live with Him for eternity.

End of story.

For me, what kind of religion you are has nothing to do with it.

*Edited to add: What does this have to do with the original topic anyway??*

Edited April 4, 2008 by missy4gordon

[ELENATION 0]

Please continue to correct my spelling I know how important that sort of thing must be to someone withy such a narrow, right wing perspective.

Did God tell you why I don't share my thoughts? it would seem that is the only way you could "know precisely" why I choose not to share them. Or is it just that you have a bit of a God complex yourself?

I have a question for you, is there only one true religion and if yes are all other religions wrong?

Tommy O, your post comes across rude and insulting to say the least, therefore you are the one showing that you are the narrow minded one..........., besides, why would you even consider posting at all when ultimately you are dealing with people like "us"? even if you are "just clarifying", you are still addressing "us" narrow minded people.... please don't stoop down to our level, you are way above us!!!!!!!!!!!!! laughable but it seems that's how you feel.....:smile: and really, it's kind of funny after all.... you showed your intellect beautifully. LOL!

Edited April 4, 2008 by ELENATION

[MrsFlipFlops 2]

Tommy O, your post comes across rude and insulting to say the least, therefore you are the one showing that you are the narrow minded one..........., besides, why would you even consider posting at all when ultimately you are dealing with people like "us"? even if you are "just clarifying", you are still addressing "us" narrow minded people.... please don't stoop down to our level, you are way above us!!!!!!!!!!!!! laughable but it seems that's how you feel.....:smile: and really, it's kind of funny after all.... you showed your intellect beautifully. LOL!

My thoughts exactly.

When discussing a topic, we shouldn't attack the PERSON or their other beliefs. I haven't engaged in this kind of behavior, and it's a poor choice for anyone else to.

Golly, I am wondering if I'm back in high school! :blushing: But still enjoy reading. Thanks to all posters- no matter your side! :cursing:

[BJean 16]

TommyO: Man how I've missed you! And I am so very glad that you added your posts. It really puts things into a proper perspective. For everyone to have jumped on you in such a rude way - just because you do not share their religious beliefs - is very, very telling about who they are inside, which would seem to reveal a lot about the people behind the anti-choice movement.

It also explains clearly why more people from the silent majority just stay silent.

[BJean 16]

By the way, if you will take the time to go back and read Tommy's original post on this page, you will find that he did not personally insult anyone. He was stating his views and commenting that he had a hard time understanding how people could literally believe the story of Noah's Ark. And if one does believe in it literally, how can one expect a discussion here to come to a "logical" conclusion. I believe that is a point well taken.

I'm sorry, I just don't believe that he was being rude or insulting to anyone in a personal way. I believe he was saying what HE believes. Then he was jumped on for his spelling and accused of being all kinds of rude.

If you have a problem with his beliefs, why don't you argue those points instead of making it so personal? You don't know Tommy. He could be your very own state legislator. Or your doctor. Or your high school history teacher. Or your college statistics professor. I've known many intellectual and brilliant people who do not type well and who do misspell words. What about our former Vice President? Okay yeah, I know, TommyO couldn't be our former Vice President, that's obvious.

Been missing you Tommy!

[Pix 4]

I have to add my .02. This is a (true) story about my best friend.

She had an abortion back in the early 90's, She knew when that pregnancy test came back positive she would be dooming that unborn child to a life of hell. She was a drug user, and a heavy drinker. She was in a very abusive marriage with one child already.

She decided to go ahead and terminate the pregnancy. To this day she still feels the pain of what she had done. But she knows in her heart that it was the right choice to make, but that still doesn't stop the pain of knowing she did what she did. Now to this day I support her in her choice, I would have held her hand if I had lived closer to her. She also knows that if she had to make that choice again, she would do it again. That still doesn't stop the pain of what she had done. She now has 4 beautiful children is in a wonderful relationship with a great guy.

Until the situation arises how can anyone tell another person what is right or wrong in there own personal life? You don't know her, so how can you or anyone tell her she is wrong for what she did?? This debate go on forever, even if they "ban" it (yeah that worked in the 50/60's didn't it ....) it will still be at the forefront of what ifs and how fores. There is no right answer to this one.

[missy4gordon 0]

I have to add my .02. This is a (true) story about my best friend.

She had an abortion back in the early 90's, She knew when that pregnancy test came back positive she would be dooming that unborn child to a life of hell.

She now has 4 beautiful children is in a wonderful relationship with a great guy.

So in one breath, having that baby would be dooming it to "a life of hell", but now she is living a wonderful life with 4 children.....hmmm

If that is what people have to tell themselves to sleep at night, that it was for the Baby's Own Good, I'm sorry, I don't buy it. They just don't want to take responsibility for their actions and it is a way out.

Look, sorry if this sounds harsh but the truth hurts......