who supports right to choose

[gadgetlady 4]

Yes, I understand your position and your desire to change the law. However with change comes responsibility. Too often impassioned people have rushed to make or change a law without fully understanding or considering the repercussions of that change.

Once again, pre-Roe the abortionists were charged but generally not the mothers. I have no reason to believe that would change.

People get very angry and militant when it comes to someone killing a child. They don't seem too concerned with mitigating circumstances over where that thread is being discussed.

Well, despite your implication, those "people" aren't me. I said on the other thread that I thought it was a case of neglect, not murder. Ergo, mitigating circumstances and intent come into play.

[snuffy65 1]

Once again, pre-Roe the abortionists were charged but generally not the mothers. I have no reason to believe that would change.

Well, despite your implication, those "people" aren't me. I said on the other thread that I thought it was a case of neglect, not murder. Ergo, mitigating circumstances and intent come into play.

I wasn't going to chime in anymore but I would just like to throw my two cents in about this.

Neglect can only be charged if the "child" doesn't die in the process. If the child dies the parents would have to be charged with murder or manslaughter. Like the two articles in the other thread, one the child died and they said possible murder charges could be brought up and the other where the 4yr old didn't die , the mother could be charged with neglect.

Mansluaughter, you mentioned, would be a more lenient alternative for abortions. However, manslaughter also could not happen if your theory of conception was fact and was a legal definition. Manslaughter is when a person acts on another to do harm and which death has resulted but wasn't purpsely inflicted.

So, I think when Bjean says people jump too fast in creating laws he was right. Clearly, if what you say about the start of life is fact and becomes law the courts would have no other choice but life imprisonment and/or death penalty, whichever state your in.

This is my last post for this thread. However I would like to thank everyone for making interesting arguements on boths sides. It has peaked my interests and I shall study up on the issue more and maybe I will switch sides... But don't hold your breath, hehe.

Edited April 2, 2008 by snuffy65

[gadgetlady 4]

This is my last post for this thread.

If you ever decide to come back, I'd love it if you would answer the few questions I asked, since I always patiently answered every single one of yours.

However I would like to thank everyone for making interesting arguements on boths sides. It has peaked my interests and I shall study up on the issue more and maybe I will switch sides

Let me know if I can help with that

[gadgetlady 4]

So, I think when Bjean says people jump too fast in creating laws he was right. Clearly, if what you say about the start of life is fact and becomes law the courts would have no other choice but life imprisonment and/or death penalty, whichever state your in.

Then why weren't mothers charged pre-Roe?

[snuffy65 1]

If you ever decide to come back, I'd love it if you would answer the few questions I asked, since I always patiently answered every single one of yours.

Let me know if I can help with that :biggrin:

I answered, them. I was going to paste every question you asked and paste my answers but you asked alot. I notice you try to dissprove every answer I wrote. So basically if the answer isn't right for you, you consider it no answer at all.

And sure your already helping, I'm always willing to listen to the other side.

[snuffy65 1]

Then why weren't mothers charged pre-Roe?

You should ask yourself that question, not me. Because not charging the woman defeats the whole notion that a human being is murdered in an abortion. Perhaps thats why they didn't.

Again, thanks for sparking my interests on the subject , but please stop referring me and asking me questions. I will be coming back periodically to read the debating for it is very informational.

But I won't be answering anymore, just don;t have the time lol.

But this quote from an article about court cases pre Roe.

So, the only time an abortionist was prosecuted is when the woman had been injured or killed.

Hence, the reason the mother was never convicted.

Edited April 3, 2008 by snuffy65

[BJean 16]

snuffy you can't imagine how much I have appreciated your posts and I too thought that you had answered all the questions that had been asked of you, and more.

You may think that there is no one who is in agreement with you (except me, of course) and that your postings don't make any difference. But I believe that there is a silent majority reading this that just don't enjoy the awful negative stuff that comes into play. And if anyone is pro-choice and says so, they get walloped severely about the head, neck and shoulders. It seems like lately you and I are the only ones who've been willing and able to trudge on in spite of everything.

I do not, however, blame you one bit for opting out. In fact, after yesterday, I believe that the negativity of participating on this thread is getting me down in a way that isn't healthy. Some of our dear readers may find this a delightful turn of events that you and I both are feeling as if we've been beaten to a bluddy pulp (at least I feel that I have - you seem much stronger than I feel).

So maybe if we don't continue to post, this thread will die down at least for a while. If not, I reckon the vocal minority can rant and rave on, post their extremist websites, and high five, without our input.

[ELENATION 0]

Hi Gadget,

I was off for a few days and when I checked this thread again I wanted to respond , add more, comment, it's so frustrating...but frankly you have done such a great job, you put my own feelings and thoughts in such a clear manner when you write that I decided not to add anything else, you nailed it every time and I thank you for that, you are the greatest advocate for those tiny unborn babies that can't speak for themselves and for that I admire you.:biggrin:

[gadgetlady 4]

Hi Gadget,

I was off for a few days and when I checked this thread again I wanted to respond , add more, comment, it's so frustrating...but frankly you have done such a great job, you put my own feelings and thoughts in such a clear manner when you write that I decided not to add anything else, you nailed it every time and I thank you for that, you are the greatest advocate for those tiny unborn babies that can't speak for themselves and for that I admire you.:bolt:

Thanks, Elena. I do sometimes feel all alone on this thread.

[gadgetlady 4]

I answered, them. I was going to paste every question you asked and paste my answers but you asked alot. I notice you try to dissprove every answer I wrote. So basically if the answer isn't right for you, you consider it no answer at all.

Here are 4 I can think of just off the top of my head, without even going back in the thread:

1. When do YOU think life begins and what criteria do you use to support your position?

2. What, other than avoiding some vaginal stretching, is a valid reason for a partial-birth abortion?

3. What criteria or criterion were used to support the notion that black people are fully human?

4. You said that you felt abortion was sad or something along those lines (I don't remember your exact words -- maybe you said tragic?). I asked why.

[gadgetlady 4]

please stop referring me and asking me questions.

Oops, sorry. I already did re-ask the questions that were never answered. I read from the last thing read, not everything that's been said, before I post. I understand you won't be answering. I sure would like it if someone would, though.

[gadgetlady 4]

if anyone is pro-choice and says so, they get walloped severely about the head, neck and shoulders.

Why is posting questions and challenging answers considered getting "walloped severely"?

you and I both are feeling as if we've been beaten to a bluddy pulp

Again, why do you feel as if you've been beaten to a bloody pulp? Unless you feel the responses of the pro-life side have substantial merit and you can't defend the abortion position? I don't feel like I've been beaten to a bloody pulp or walloped severely about the head, neck and shoulders. I feel like I've been challenged and have responded to that challenge with simple facts and arguments. Sometimes I do feel alone, but I don't feel like what's been said to me or asked of me -- or how I've responded -- has been unfair.

May I remind you, although you keep claiming the minority, that the poll is still running about 60/40 in your favor (the pro-life percentage has increased slightly in the past few days, but it's held pretty steady at about 60/40 since the early days of this thread). While I'd love it if you were the minority, it's quite simply not the case.

[ELENATION 0]

Thanks, Elena. I do sometimes feel all alone on this thread.

I understand how you feel, my impression is that there are many more abortionists than pro-lifers on this thread, that alone makes it hard, but not only that, you are also so well informed and so knowledgeable that there is not much left to add after reading your posts, I know that it's not fun feeling alone under any circumstances, but in this case, please take it as a compliment, it is true that there are many here that respect and admire your input.

[snuffy65 1]

Here are 4 I can think of just off the top of my head, without even going back in the thread:

1. When do YOU think life begins and what criteria do you use to support your position?

2. What, other than avoiding some vaginal stretching, is a valid reason for a partial-birth abortion?

3. What criteria or criterion were used to support the notion that black people are fully human?

4. You said that you felt abortion was sad or something along those lines (I don't remember your exact words -- maybe you said tragic?). I asked why.

Only answering these because you didn't see the other post:

1. Same as what the supreme court says, when the child is no longer Dependant of the mother for sustaining its own life. Think 27 weeks? I think they go from when the lungs are developed. However you could make the argument to me that life may start when the child develops a heartbeat AND has its circulatory system closed form the mothers. Which would be at 6-8 weeks. However, I will stick with the court's decision.

2. Vaginal stretching is not the only thing that can happen in a live birth. And that doesn;t even count for the severely deformed babies. Again, I support the partial birth ban if there is a medical necessity clause in it. I would then like to See our medical informations laws changed so that it is clear why the doctor is doing this procedures and others.

3. Black people like every other race shares the same DNA structure. And no, I don't believe because that fertilized egg has the same human dna' that it is human. A dead person has human DNA and if I stabbed one in the head I wouldn't be a murderer.

4. I said bad. That procedure is not the easiest of procedures. A woman could be scarred in the womb making them unable to have kids ever again. Also like most procedures theirs a small chance of death. Which is why I don't support any women who use abortions like their monthly birth control.

I see you only want me to give answers that a typical pro lifer would give so you can throw back into my face. However, just because I didn't answer in that doesn't mean I didn't answer them. 2 of those questions I did answer but you didn't get me in that "gotcha corner. The other 2 you never asked me while we were on the subject.

Again, only responding in respect to you and the fact you didn't read my last post before asking the questions.

Edited April 3, 2008 by snuffy65

[missy4gordon 0]

Thanks, Elena. I do sometimes feel all alone on this thread.

You are not alone.....I support everything you have said, but I could never have said it myself in the way that you have. Brilliant.

You are a great advocate for those babies who need your voice.