who supports right to choose

[gadgetlady 4]

Sorry to tell you but it is not your place to decide or judge anyone for anything!!!You only have to answer for yourself. Unless you are living some perfect life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then there's no reason for any laws whatsoever.

There are things that are right and proper for human beings to do (especially to other human beings), and there are also things that are wrong and improper. One does not have to live a perfect life to call wrong, wrong. I'm sure you wouldn't tell a serial killer that what he's doing is perfectly fine, he only has to answer for himself, and it's not your place to decide or judge him.

[jwgr 0]

Sorry to tell you but it is not your place to decide or judge anyone for anything!!!You only have to answer for yourself. Unless you are living some perfect life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow... I'm shocked that you would compare a womans right to choose to serial killers.

[gadgetlady 4]

Wow... I'm shocked that you would compare a womans right to choose to serial killers.

I didn't. I was using serial killers as an example of something that is obviously criminal -- in response to your claim that we should never decide or judge anyone for anything.

[jwgr 0]

I didn't. I was using serial killers as an example of something that is obviously criminal -- in response to your claim that we should never decide or judge anyone for anything.

That is what is only legal.

[gadgetlady 4]

That is what is only legal.

If something is legal it is always right?

If it's legal but still wrong, we never have a right to say it's wrong?

What about when laws change? Abortion USED to be illegal in many states. Was it OK to say it was wrong then but not now? If it becomes illegal again, can we unzip our mouths?

[Desdemona 48]

I'm sorry to get on a rant but I'm heartsick over many of the comments I have read here and I'm going to say my peice although I'll probably regret it. I have just seen too much to keep my mouth shut. I have been going back and forth to Africa working with genocide victims, women who are constantly raped in war (in case you don't know --there are MILLIONS of them!), hungry orphans whose parents have died from hunger, war, poverty, illness. There are thousands and thousands of CHILD-Headed households all over the world which have 9-15 children in them. I go into places where 12 year old sick, hungry girls are raising 15 orphans with little help! Very few people are adopting these children! They are hungry, vulnerable to preying adult men, and without hope. Men come around and snatch them and sell them in the U.S. and all over the rest of the world as sex-slaves or house slaves. Have you any idea how many women and children are being held right here in the U.S. as slaves??!! If adoption is such a simple and wonderful little alternative to abortion then I want to know why is this all happening? Even here in the U.S. people ignore thousands of American born children who need shelter and protection. I travel around the U.S. and I see suffering children who are orphans---or just plain neglected and abused ---brought into this world under TERRIBLE conditions and left abandoned. MANY of them were born badly hurt (birth defects, crack addicted, malnurished etc). If adopting these poor innocent babies is so easy --how many of the pro-life people reading this have stepped forward and taken one into their homes? Not a lot! That's because either these wonderful Christians don't want to have a "child of color" in THEIR house----or---in other cases it's because there are potential problems and most people, Christian or otherwise, understandably don't want to take the financial, lifestyle and safety risks that are involved. The TRUTH is there are no easy answers to this question. I'm a Chrisitian --- and I believe that bringing human beings into a world where they can't get food, protection, and love is a terrible thing to do. And I'm NOT just saying it's wrong to be the party bringing the child in. I also think it's equally wrong to tell someone who is trying to stop someone who needs to get an abortion from getting one. I loved to just shake my finger at a rapists, a war monger, a drug addict, 2 immature teenagers, a woman (or MAN) who is emotional, developmentally, or intellectually impaired, or a woman who just had an "accident" and tell them, "no, no,no" -- but I can't. How, In _OD's name - can we just keep sitting here watching millions of women/children beg for their lives and offer them nothing more than our personal spiritual beliefs --which by the way-- none of us can actually prove. I wouldn't even let a pet DOG have pups if the pups couldn't be cared for. As a Christian --- I'm am so profoundly heartbroken that we argue over the rightousness of abortion and never even discuss the rightouness being idle (or sitting around pontificating) when we can do things to prevent suffering. Until the day come that the human race becomes responsibile enough to stop these out-of-control conceptions ---I am in favor of any and all methods needed to stop this unspeakable suffering.

[BJean 16]

Rugman: I have learned that the suffering of human beings once out of the womb is not the concern of anti-abortionists. Their concern, their fight, revolves around just the undeveloped, implanted egg - the potential human being - because those cells cannot speak for themselves. They believe that they have the right and the need to scream out for the unborn so that they are allowed to develop and be brought into the world, no matter what the conditions are once they are born.

I have argued several times about lives being much too important for this argument. Their argument, for me, is akin to establishing babies as a commodity.

I believe that adoption can be an answer - but I believe it is not ALWAYS a good answer, and in fact, adoption can produce disasterous results for both mother and child.

They argue that it is the best alternative. I disagree, but that being said, I am highly offended that one human being believes that he or she should control the uterus of another human being because they think they know what is always, in every case, right for the unborn baby.

[BJean 16]

P.S. These things that I have stated, above, are things that I have gleaned from my participation here as well as from my lifetime of experience and research on both sides of the question. I am sure that they will embrace the opportunity to correct me if they feel I am wrong.

[Desdemona 48]

BJean--I thank you for your post. I take your point. There is a rich philosophical approach to this however, I think I'm now passed it. I have 3 degrees (despite the fact that I type so fast I leave typos!) and have (unfortunately) "philosophized" and "religionized" with the best of them. But---after all those fancy papers, I have seen enough to conclude that nothing----no conversation---no political position---no action---no dogma-- is more important to me than doing whatever is possible to stop suffering. I understand that that many people would argue that the unborn fetus is a person with rights and that many believe there is an unborn soul that has rights or that God has made the life. What can I say? That is a belief and people who do NOT believe that have every much of a right to their belief. My own particular personal belief is that I am here to care about those around me. I have gotten past the philosophical stuff. I just want to stop the suffering of the 1 child who happens to be sitting in front of me at the moment. I think it was Mother Jones who said --"pray for the dead and fight like hell for the living."

Rugman

[gadgetlady 4]

I'm sorry to get on a rant but I'm heartsick over many of the comments I have read here and I'm going to say my peice although I'll probably regret it. I have just seen too much to keep my mouth shut. I have been going back and forth to Africa working with genocide victims, women who are constantly raped in war (in case you don't know --there are MILLIONS of them!), hungry orphans whose parents have died from hunger, war, poverty, illness. There are thousands and thousands of CHILD-Headed households all over the world which have 9-15 children in them. I go into places where 12 year old sick, hungry girls are raising 15 orphans with little help! Very few people are adopting these children! They are hungry, vulnerable to preying adult men, and without hope. Men come around and snatch them and sell them in the U.S. and all over the rest of the world as sex-slaves or house slaves. Have you any idea how many women and children are being held right here in the U.S. as slaves??!! If adoption is such a simple and wonderful little alternative to abortion then I want to know why is this all happening?

Rugman, there are dire and horrible social situations throughout the world. As Christians it is our job to care for the widows and the orphans. It is also our job to speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. One does not negate the other. We should not advocate the killing of innocent human beings for any reason whatsoever, and it cannot be justified as a preemptive act of kindness.

Until the day come that the human race becomes responsibile enough to stop these out-of-control conceptions ---I am in favor of any and all methods needed to stop this unspeakable suffering.

Out of control conceptions can be stopped. By preventing them. Killing the babies after they're conceived is not the answer.

[gadgetlady 4]

I understand that that many people would argue that the unborn fetus is a person with rights and that many believe there is an unborn soul that has rights or that God has made the life. What can I say? That is a belief and people who do NOT believe that have every much of a right to their belief.

I personally do not believe that the argument about whether the unborn baby has a soul can inform the abortion debate -- precisely because it is unscientific and unprovable.

But I bring this up because you say you are a Christian. When Jesus was in Mary's womb, was He a human being? When He leaped in the womb in the presence of John the Baptist in Elizabeth's womb, was John the Baptist a human being? Had God created him? Did either of those two unborn babies have rights or a purpose on this earth?

I just want to stop the suffering of the 1 child who happens to be sitting in front of me at the moment.

Abortion is the ultimate child abuse. You can't dismember a human being and then claim it was only for their good.

. . .

Well, I guess you can.

[anjelinaj 0]

This is actually not a surprising number at all. Abortion clinics regularly use ultrasounds to determine gestational age, to help the abortionist determine where the baby is in the womb so he can properly dismember him/her, and to determine whether any baby parts are left in the womb after the abortion is complete. It's not at all a surprise that, while in an abortion clinic, if a pregnant mother asks to see her ultrasound, she is denied the privilege. Abortionists and staff workers know what happens when a mother sees her unborn baby moving, kicking, heart beating, etc., and it's not good for business.

While I can't speak for every abortion clinic in America, I can speak for one. The ultrasound tech did ask if the mother wanted to see the fetus, and the ultrasound was only performed prior to the abortion, not after to see if there were still 'baby parts' in the womb. I never got the impression the clinic staff was trying to meet a quota, and showing ultrasounds would be 'bad for business.'

Rest assured this is an extremely personal and heart wrenching decision for most women. We think we know what we will do, but sometimes, until you are there, you don't. I stand proud as a pro-choice supporter.

[BJean 16]

Some anti-choice people seem to think that women who opt for abortions are ill-informed, naive or just plain stupid and that they just want to pretend that there is no tissue growing inside them. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have no stats on it but I would be willing to bet that if a complete study were done (which is darned near impossible) there would be more well-educated and informed women who feel strongly about their responsibility as a potential mother than there are uninformed naive women seeking to make a choice. This characterization that women who have become pregnant against their wishes are promiscuous, irresponsible, uncaring, cold-hearted and selfish is completely unfounded and unfair and only serves those who choose to put down others for their own purposes.

[ELENATION 0]

I'm sorry to get on a rant but I'm heartsick over many of the comments I have read here and I'm going to say my peice although I'll probably regret it. I have just seen too much to keep my mouth shut. I have been going back and forth to Africa working with genocide victims, women who are constantly raped in war (in case you don't know --there are MILLIONS of them!), hungry orphans whose parents have died from hunger, war, poverty, illness. There are thousands and thousands of CHILD-Headed households all over the world which have 9-15 children in them. I go into places where 12 year old sick, hungry girls are raising 15 orphans with little help! Very few people are adopting these children! They are hungry, vulnerable to preying adult men, and without hope. Men come around and snatch them and sell them in the U.S. and all over the rest of the world as sex-slaves or house slaves. Have you any idea how many women and children are being held right here in the U.S. as slaves??!! If adoption is such a simple and wonderful little alternative to abortion then I want to know why is this all happening? Even here in the U.S. people ignore thousands of American born children who need shelter and protection. I travel around the U.S. and I see suffering children who are orphans---or just plain neglected and abused ---brought into this world under TERRIBLE conditions and left abandoned. MANY of them were born badly hurt (birth defects, crack addicted, malnurished etc). If adopting these poor innocent babies is so easy --how many of the pro-life people reading this have stepped forward and taken one into their homes? Not a lot! That's because either these wonderful Christians don't want to have a "child of color" in THEIR house----or---in other cases it's because there are potential problems and most people, Christian or otherwise, understandably don't want to take the financial, lifestyle and safety risks that are involved. The TRUTH is there are no easy answers to this question. I'm a Chrisitian --- and I believe that bringing human beings into a world where they can't get food, protection, and love is a terrible thing to do. And I'm NOT just saying it's wrong to be the party bringing the child in. I also think it's equally wrong to tell someone who is trying to stop someone who needs to get an abortion from getting one. I loved to just shake my finger at a rapists, a war monger, a drug addict, 2 immature teenagers, a woman (or MAN) who is emotional, developmentally, or intellectually impaired, or a woman who just had an "accident" and tell them, "no, no,no" -- but I can't. How, In _OD's name - can we just keep sitting here watching millions of women/children beg for their lives and offer them nothing more than our personal spiritual beliefs --which by the way-- none of us can actually prove. I wouldn't even let a pet DOG have pups if the pups couldn't be cared for. As a Christian --- I'm am so profoundly heartbroken that we argue over the rightousness of abortion and never even discuss the rightouness being idle (or sitting around pontificating) when we can do things to prevent suffering. Until the day come that the human race becomes responsibile enough to stop these out-of-control conceptions ---I am in favor of any and all methods needed to stop this unspeakable suffering.

It is very heartfelt what you wrote, and I definitely understand where you are coming from, I haven't seen that suffering in person, but on TV, or I have read it and it is still very painful, so I can imagine how you feel when you see it with your own eyes and right in front of you ...I know that we want to just stop the suffering, deciding to be pro-life or pro-choice is not a light decision, I feel like sadly sometimes nobody wins, certainly in cases of rape, incest it's heart wrenching... when the parents just don't plan the pregnancy and behave irresponsibly, then they should be held accountable... so many different scenarios... I understand...

As a pro-life I don't think I have the answer or the solution to the social problem ... I, like you would like to just end the horrible suffering, but like Gadget said, killing the unborn baby is not the answer either... I just wish that there was a better solution, and we must keep working hard to find it, meanwhile, someone will stand defending the mother's choice but someone must stand defending the baby's life....

I have much respect for the work you do, just wanted to add that.

Elena

Edited March 25, 2008 by ELENATION

[gadgetlady 4]

The ultrasound tech did ask if the mother wanted to see the fetus, and the ultrasound was only performed prior to the abortion

I assume, even though you're talking in the third person, that this is your personal experience (please correct me if I'm wrong). Did you choose to see the ultrasound prior to the abortion?