who supports right to choose

gadgetlady · February 13, 2008

Though this may be true, and the definition of what constitutes life does vary according to whom one consults, there still remains the question of the comparative values which we choose to place on life. This is why many individuals are comfortable with collateral/civilian damage in war zones. This is also why many individuals are comfortable with the death penalty even though it has been proven that some of the forensics and some of the police procedures have been proven to be faulty. This is also why many folks are able to skip out of a murder conviction when the background story consists of self-defense.
And of course this is also why the insurance pay-outs will be adjusted in wrongful death lawsuits. The deaths of a van full of doctors will be a greater loss to their own families and to our society than that of the loss of a van full of convicted felons. In brief, society will always be forced to make compromises; these will be based on a series of competing needs

In just such a way I feel that the rights of the pregnant woman must always trump those of the foetus. For the truth is that for many women who find themselves lumbered with unwanted pregnancies the situation is dire. And in the competition between the demands of the foetus and the person who is already here, the needs of that individual who is already alive and well and breathing and who is firmly planted in this life, I see no contest.

I understand the reasoning about comparative value, but it doesn't hold Water with me. The baby hasn't done anything to warrant the death penalty, he or she is not a combatant in a war, and his or her death is not due to an accident. It is a premeditated action on the part of one human being. It is the decision by one person that another person's life, and a 100% innocent person at that, is just too inconvenient for the person in power to allow the innocent person to live. Now I understand there are varying degrees of convenience and hardship in the situation of an unplanned pregnancy. But the bottom line is we as a society and we as individual human beings should not be killing innocent people simply because they are in our way. And we shouldn't be killing innocent people to solve social problems.

Ceradad · February 13, 2008

What kind of scars do you "feel"? I ask because I was adopted as an infant 44 years ago, and I honestly don't feel like I have any scars or anything. The only thing I'd like to know that I don't know is more about family medical history then I do. But otherwise, I don't think much about it, and have no desire to meet my birth parents. I'm gratefull they made the choice they did, but other then that I don't feel a connection to them at all. My DH had a son before we started dating that they gave up for adoption, I'm fully in support of him looking for DH someday as I realize some people want that connection.
Forgive me if you've covered this, I came back to this thread late and have skimmed some. What rights would you as an adoptee like to have? As I said, I'd like more complete medical history, and one site where both adoptee and birth parent can register so that if, and only if, both want to they can meet.

Thanks!

Ok, I'm going to assume that you did not mean the "feel" as a personal attack upon the hurt/scars that other adoptees may feel. As such, I would assume that a fellow adoptee would be a little more P.C. when it comes to others in the same group.

Now, to answer your query, I would like to SEE who I take after. I would like to KNOW if I have birth siblings. I would like to KNOW all the circumstances about the decisions made. I would like more info about my heritage than a simple questionaire that was filled out 37 yrs ago. I'd like to KNOW where I came from and who I look like. My siblings (one adopted from a different family, one biological to adoptive parents) look nothing like me. My little brother, who is the biological child, knows who he looks like. He knows who he takes after. To me, that is an important aspect of life.

As for rights for adoptees from previous generations, the biggest thing is just to have rights. The birthparents hold all the cards. If I go through the agency I was adopted through to conduct a search for my birthparents, and they are found, they can say they do not want contact and that is that. I have no choice as far as the law is concerned outside of going through a private investigator and surprise them. I'm not saying I want a relationship with my birthparents. I just would like some information for my own benefit. Anything beyond that, may or may not be great.

I am happy for you if you are truly that well adjusted. However, how can you seemingly make light of others in your position?

BJean · February 13, 2008

Green, thank you sincerely for bringing a fresh viewpoint to this discussion.

You are absolutely correct about there being different values put on different lives. It exists throughout the world. It will always be that way until we someday reach nirvana where everyone is equal in everyway - which is impossible here on earth.

For some people to believe that an undeveloped fetus is more important and "trumps" the value of the life of its' host, is unacceptable.

For people to say that pregnancy, labor and delivery and giving birth to a living breathing human being is an "inconvenience" is simplifying and presuming to the point of ridiculousness. Having a child should be considered much, much, much more important than an just an "inconvenience" to anyone - although I do know that human life is treated that way by many people, unfortunately.

The discussion about adoption here points to how easy or difficult that particilar legality can affect each person touched by it. The fact that we are all so different only goes to underscore the fact that there is no one perfect answer to the question of unwanted pregnancies.

That is why they must all be dealt with on a singular basis.

lisah25 · February 13, 2008

Ok, I'm going to assume that you did not mean the "feel" as a personal attack upon the hurt/scars that other adoptees may feel. As such, I would assume that a fellow adoptee would be a little more P.C. when it comes to others in the same group.

I am VERY sorry, I honestly didn't mean any sort of attack at all. I don't remember now why I put that in quotes, but it wasn't meant in any way shape or form to be any sort of attack. I am honestly curious about how other adoptees feel, I am very aware there is a huge range of emotions. My brother, also adopted from different birth parents then mine, doesn't talk about it, doesn't like to discuss it.

Now, to answer your query, I would like to SEE who I take after. I would like to KNOW if I have birth siblings. I would like to KNOW all the circumstances about the decisions made. I would like more info about my heritage than a simple questionaire that was filled out 37 yrs ago. I'd like to KNOW where I came from and who I look like. My siblings (one adopted from a different family, one biological to adoptive parents) look nothing like me. My little brother, who is the biological child, knows who he looks like. He knows who he takes after. To me, that is an important aspect of life.

I find it so interesting that for some of us, this matters very much, for me it just doesn't. Shows what a great variety of people we all are. I have talked to people who found their birth families, and for some it wasn't a good experience. They didn't like the families they came from, so perhaps that's part of it for me. I don't want to risk being dissapointed, if that makes sense.

I am happy for you if you are truly that well adjusted. However, how can you seemingly make light of others in your position?

Again, I didn't mean to make light. But yes, I believe I am as well-adjusted as anyone I know. I feel like my family was pretty much normal, not perfect, not horrible. Much like the families of my friends who weren't adopted.

One thing that I think helped is that I always knew I was adopted. I don't remember any one time being told, it's just what I grew up knowing. There was no sense of shame or that it was some big secret. I even had a cousin tell me in a fight, "well, you're just adopted". My response "My parents picked me, yours had to take what they got". :smile:

gadgetlady · February 13, 2008

You are absolutely correct about there being different values put on different lives. It exists throughout the world. It will always be that way until we someday reach nirvana where everyone is equal in everyway - which is impossible here on earth.

Of course it's impossible for everyone to be equal here on earth. That doesn't mean we go off killing the ones we perceive to have less value.

For some people to believe that an undeveloped fetus is more important and "trumps" the value of the life of its' host, is unacceptable.

Neither life "trumps" the other. The mother won't die by bringing the baby to term.

green · February 13, 2008

Ok, I'm going to assume that you did not mean the "feel" as a personal attack upon the hurt/scars that other adoptees may feel. As such, I would assume that a fellow adoptee would be a little more P.C. when it comes to others in the same group.
Now, to answer your query, I would like to SEE who I take after. I would like to KNOW if I have birth siblings. I would like to KNOW all the circumstances about the decisions made. I would like more info about my heritage than a simple questionaire that was filled out 37 yrs ago. I'd like to KNOW where I came from and who I look like. My siblings (one adopted from a different family, one biological to adoptive parents) look nothing like me. My little brother, who is the biological child, knows who he looks like. He knows who he takes after. To me, that is an important aspect of life.

As for rights for adoptees from previous generations, the biggest thing is just to have rights. The birthparents hold all the cards. If I go through the agency I was adopted through to conduct a search for my birthparents, and they are found, they can say they do not want contact and that is that. I have no choice as far as the law is concerned outside of going through a private investigator and surprise them. I'm not saying I want a relationship with my birthparents. I just would like some information for my own benefit. Anything beyond that, may or may not be great.

I am happy for you if you are truly that well adjusted. However, how can you seemingly make light of others in your position?

This should be considered to be a sidebar to, not as a hi-jacking of, the main conversation, but I confess that I do find this conversation to be extremely interesting. You see, my family was very tribal: my parents were fond of pointing out how my brothers and myself took after one or another of the genetic forebears. Oddly enough, they were not at all prepared to acknowledge the dark side of our genetic inheritance: this would be our severe problems with depression. For sure my parents were cherry picking when it came to acknowledging the genetic values of our particular tribe.

At the same time, I find it interesting to understand how an individual might feel who has been given a very strong sense of family - for each adopted child has been actively chosen - and yet who remains in the dark about all that genetic/tribal information.

Please understand that I mean no disrespect by these comments and I certainly have no desire to hurt or offend anyone.

Ceradad · February 14, 2008

One thing that I think helped is that I always knew I was adopted. I don't remember any one time being told, it's just what I grew up knowing. There was no sense of shame or that it was some big secret. I even had a cousin tell me in a fight, "well, you're just adopted". My response "My parents picked me, yours had to take what they got". :cursing:

As did I and my sister. We were never told otherwise. As a sidenote, that is one thing about shows that make it out as a dirty secret and that some parents are ashamed to have adopted so they hide it from their children.

I did forget to mention that this was not a major concern for me until DW and I started the adoption process for ourselves and went through classes through the agency. As I stated previously, adoptions are more and more being open adoptions. At first, I found this to be a very alien way of doing it to me. The more I learned, and the more I thought about it, I thought it was a great idea because it gives the child a chance to learn more about themselves.

Ashley, DD's birthmother, chose to have a closed adoption as she didn't think she could handle seeing her very much. However, she is open to meeting sometime when DD is old enough to start to have questions and then we will revisit the arrangement at that time.

Also, I did not mean to come across as being offended. Sometimes, it is hard to read it to peoples words only what their emotions are. I am guilty of this myself. Just so you know, I was not offended. I actually am happy to be having civil discussions about this topic.

lisah25 · February 14, 2008

As did I and my sister. We were never told otherwise. As a sidenote, that is one thing about shows that make it out as a dirty secret and that some parents are ashamed to have adopted so they hide it from their children.

Yeah, why is it that so many sit-coms needed to have a "Was I adopted and how horrible that would be" story line at one point or another!? :mellow:

I did forget to mention that this was not a major concern for me until DW and I started the adoption process for ourselves and went through classes through the agency. As I stated previously, adoptions are more and more being open adoptions. At first, I found this to be a very alien way of doing it to me. The more I learned, and the more I thought about it, I thought it was a great idea because it gives the child a chance to learn more about themselves.

My purely gut-level, emotional reaction to open adoptions is negative. Maybe because mine wasn't. I see too many chances for issues to come up, but then closed adoptions have their own issues. I would wonder about confusion about why my birth mother gave me up, but still wanted to be in touch. And I would worry as the adoptive parent that she might want too much influence in the kids life. But then, I also believe that there isn't such a thing as too many loving people in a kid's life. So, like so many other things, for me this comes down to the individuals involved.

Also, I did not mean to come across as being offended. Sometimes, it is hard to read it to peoples words only what their emotions are. I am guilty of this myself. Just so you know, I was not offended. I actually am happy to be having civil discussions about this topic.

Good - I agree, we miss so much in just having the words on a screen, ok and a smilie or too!:cursing:

Ceradad · February 14, 2008

Yeah, why is it that so many sit-coms needed to have a "Was I adopted and how horrible that would be" story line at one point or another!?
My purely gut-level, emotional reaction to open adoptions is negative. Maybe because mine wasn't. I see too many chances for issues to come up, but then closed adoptions have their own issues. I would wonder about confusion about why my birth mother gave me up, but still wanted to be in touch. And I would worry as the adoptive parent that she might want too much influence in the kids life. But then, I also believe that there isn't such a thing as too many loving people in a kid's life. So, like so many other things, for me this comes down to the individuals involved.

Good - I agree, we miss so much in just having the words on a screen, ok and a smilie or too!:cursing:

The issues you brought up concerning confusion were all ones I experienced, and still experience now that we are in the process on trying to adopt again. The biggest being, how would DD feel if our 2nd child has an open adoption and gets to see their birthparent(s). Also, if our 2nd child, assuming we are picked again, has an open adoption, and their birthparent then has another baby and decides to keep that child, what does that do to our child? So many issues can arise from open adoptions. However, the agencies are very good at helping out with the experiences they have had and are a very good resource.

So, still alot to consider with adoption and everyone just needs to remember to respect each other in these debates.

Hope everyone has a great Valentines Day!

green · February 14, 2008

You might be interested to know that sometimes very unhappy children will have fantasies that they were adopted and that they really do not belong to these folks who call themselves their families.

lisah25 · February 14, 2008

You might be interested to know that sometimes very unhappy children will have fantasies that they were adopted and that they really do not belong to these folks who call themselves their families.

More then once, I've said that I'm glad that I don't have a genetic relationship to my family. Usually as a joke when they are being weird, but also seriously as there are some serious health issues there on both sides. Granted, I don't know what I did inheirate(sp?) but I know what I missed.

Have you read Augusten Burrough's books? In one, he talks about visiting the Vandervilt(I think) home, and deciding that he was their son, and lived there until his parents kidknapped him.

BJean · February 14, 2008

lisah your last paragraph is hilarious. I'm with green. I know my kids often ask me if my parents were really the same ones who produced my siblings. :mad:

gadget: we do go off and kill people who have less value all the time. As green pointed out, it is the way of the world. I agreed and said that there's no way to change it. You seemed to agree too.

But I couldn't disagree with you more when you said, "The mother won't die by bringing the baby to term."

That is just plain wrong. Some women do die. When abortion was illegal some women committed suicide when they realized they were pregnant. Women die in childbirth more often than you'd probably like to admit. Women can be driven to the brink of insanity and beyond when they learn they have been impregnated against their wishes.

The problems an unwanted pregnancy can present to some women are very real and tangible and sometimes insurmountable. And there are many women who could never give a child up for adoption but who are unable to take care of a child in any case, and for miriad reasons.

You have no right to demand that all women, in every circumstance, absolutely must carry a child to term, no matter what.

If we legislate your beliefs, we would definitely be saying that the unborn fetus trumps the life of the mother.

gadgetlady · February 14, 2008

gadget: we do go off and kill people who have less value all the time. As green pointed out, it is the way of the world. I agreed and said that there's no way to change it. You seemed to agree too.

No, I said we go off and kill people like criminals who are guilty of heinous crimes, soldiers kill people during war, and people are accidentally killed in accidents. There is no circumstance that I can think of where we deliberately kill an innocent person to get them out of our way. We don't kill the homeless guy on the street because we don't like him. We don't kill to solve social problems.

But I couldn't disagree with you more when you said, "The mother won't die by bringing the baby to term."
That is just plain wrong. Some women do die. When abortion was illegal some women committed suicide when they realized they were pregnant. Women die in childbirth more often than you'd probably like to admit.

Women don't have abortions because they're concerned they're going to die if they bring the baby to term. In cases where the mother's physical life is in danger if she continues the pregnancy, no law would prevent an abortion. These cases are virtually nil.

BJean · February 14, 2008

re: "These cases are virtually nil" - care to cite some stats on that?

Also, how in the world could you possibly know what is in a woman's mind when she is considering abortion? Some women absolutely do think they will die if they are unable to get an abortion.

You tend to make light of or ignore the women's problems and rights in favor of the fetus. That isn't practical, fair or right as far as I am concerned.

You know I am not against adoption or against women carrying a baby to term even when she may not want to keep her baby, right?

The bottom line on this entire issue is that women are all different with different problems, different mental states of mind, different socio-economic issues, different medical issues and you are wanting to force each and every one of them to carry an unwanted, unplanned baby to term.

My belief is that each and every woman should continue to have the right to make her own choices in each and every case. One band-aide does not fit all and this issue is much too important to pretend (or wish) that the only choice a woman should have is a cut and dried decision that should be governed by law.

gadgetlady · February 14, 2008

re: "These cases are virtually nil" - care to cite some stats on that?

In the 1980's, former US Surgeon General C. Everett Koop said, "The fact of the matter is that abortion as a necessity to save the life of the mother is so rare as to be nonexistent." Realistically, with medical technology advanced to the state it is and with babies being able to survive outside the womb as early as they do, this is a non-issue. Where or when it is an issue, pro-life laws wouldn't prevent abortion in this case as they would consider it trading one physical life for another.

The bottom line on this entire issue is that women are all different with different problems, different mental states of mind, different socio-economic issues, different medical issues and you are wanting to force each and every one of them to carry an unwanted, unplanned baby to term.

No, the bottom line on this entire issue is that we should not kill innocent people because of one person's mental state of mind or her socio-economic issues.