who supports right to choose

[smsmithart 4]

women have the legal right to choice...

im glad the law is on my side

its a terrible thing and a very hard choice to make and so is adoption to carry a baby for 9months and let it go and never see it again ....that can leaves scars that can not heal ...

[marjon9 6]

I still wonder what all the debate is about...

its simple, its between a Woman and her Doctor, end of story....

Everyone else, especially Men should mind their own business.

Man have wives, mothers and daughters. Men are fathers of babies. It is really small-minded and, frankly, mean-spirited to say that men have no place in this debate. Male bashing is the last thing we need to add to this topic.

[Ceradad 10]

I still wonder what all the debate is about...

its simple, its between a Woman and her Doctor, end of story....

Everyone else, especially Men should mind their own business.[/quote]

So, as an adoptee and adoptive father, I should just keep my mouth shut and deal with it? Interesting, that is pretty much the opposite of what women have had to deal with for a long time.

And what about the father of the baby? He should have no say in it whatsoever? Funny, if the mother chooses to have the baby and the father decides to stay out of it (which I find reprehensible (sp) ), then he is crucified.

Men have rights when it comes to their children, born and unborn, as well.

[Blund 0]

I agree. But there are SO MANY variables. I've been trying to think of a situation where your MN law would not work, and I can't think of one. (Although I have not personally read the law. I might even surf for it!) I think in the end, if a decision HAS to be made, the scale should slip slightly toward the woman for that.

[Ceradad 10]

women have the legal right to choice...

im glad the law is on my side

its a terrible thing and a very hard choice to make and so is adoption to carry a baby for 9months and let it go and never see it again ....that can leaves scars that can not heal ...

I agree, it used to be, and still can be. But, now it is the birthmothers choice. Adoption agencies, more and more, are going to "open" adoptions. This allows both the birthmother and the child to have interaction with each other. It allows the child to see where they come from. It is no longer the closed "secret" it used to be.

And, you don't think abortion leaves scars? If that is what you think, you are deluding yourself. I would imagine it would be tougher on most women later in life knowing they aborted a child than it would be to know they gave birth to a child and allowed the child to grow up in a loving, caring environment.

I'm not trying to attack anyone, just stating there are other options out there. To state that adoption leaves scars on the mother and not abortion is just not considering all the consequences of the situation.

Now, as an adoptee, adoption also leaves scars on the child. Especially, adults who were adopted in the age of "closed" adoptions where we have no rights whatsoever. However, at least we are alive. And, to me, my daughter, my wife and my extended family, that is a very good thing.

[Ceradad 10]

Choosing adoption is not ALWAYS the best answer. I believe I understand your feelings on the issue, Ceredad, and of course your feelings are valid and important.

However as much as anti-choice people would like to believe that adoption is a perfect solution to a very difficult problem, it just is not. To compel fertile women to have children because some women cannot have children is completely unfair and completely wrong.

If a woman wants to have a baby that is the result of an unwanted and unplanned pregnancy, she is completely and totally free to do so. Thankfully there are many women who make that choice. But people have no right to force women to have children.

This issue is way too important to everyone involved, including the baby, for the government or religious people or people of certain beliefs to make the decisions for all women on whether or not to bear unwanted children.

This is an issue that is being discussed because it is so very important. There are many people who feel that it is within their rights to protect unborn children. There are many more people who believe that it is a personal issue, to be dealt with by the affected people, not an issue to be decided by elected officials, supreme court justices or their next door neighbor. (Good point, Peaches!)

We better all be prepared to deal with it big time if a Republican gets elected. In fact, our current president may have already put the wheels in motion to go forward on this issue. We should be discussing it and we should be deciding exactly how we feel about it. Do you want your government to be run by people who want to make these kinds of personal decisions for you?

And to try to state that abortion is the perfect solution is also a bad idea. I'm not saying there is a "perfect option" for every situation. Just that there are other options. The thread was for a poll to vote on where you stand on the issue. I voted how I felt and explained my reasoning for my views. Without attacking anyone.

Now, there has been some very good discussion since I opted to vote and explain, but there have been some very nasty statements from ladies basically telling to F*#k off since I am a man. That is the problem on both sides for the most part. The fanatics refuse to have a calm discussion.

As for the whole issue concerning women who are incapable of getting pregnant. Do not minimalize their pain. My DW is a great mother who went through 7 yrs of infertility before we were finally able to adopt Cera. The pain in her eyes I had to witness each and every month when her period came was devastating. I prayed to God daily to allow us to become pregnant. It was not to be. God had other plans for us. Luckily, Ashley chose to turn a bad situation for her into a great situation for us. She had just graduated h.s. and was to start college in the fall. She knew she could not handle that and a child and her child deserved better than she could give by just getting a job. Not downplaying single mothers as I was raised by one, just stating. She could have chosen to have an abortion, but chose the other route. And DW and I thank God every day for blessing us with Cera.

So, please, do not EVER downplay the pain and suffering of an infertile women. If you have not gone through the pain, suffering, and mental anguish of a woman going through it, or know of a close friend/relative who has, you know nothing of true pain.

[green 6]

Man have wives, mothers and daughters. Men are fathers of babies. It is really small-minded and, frankly, mean-spirited to say that men have no place in this debate. Male bashing is the last thing we need to add to this topic.

The reason many women feel this way is easy to understand; it is because reproduction is by its very nature asymmetrical. After the man has successfully talked his way into a woman's vagina and deposited his sperm there he is free to leave. His genetic work is done. It will be the woman who will be on the hook emotionally, financially, and physically for the following 3/4 of a year. And, as I have said before, her body will never be the same and will still be serving up the consequences of pregnancy even when she is post-menopausal, most notably in the form of humiliating continence problems. A prolapsed uterus, something which requires an operation, is another possible post-menopausal consequence of pregnancy.

We are aware that when it comes to this issue of choice, you, Marjon, are on our side. This is greatly appreciated for you are both rational and eloquent. Nevertheless, when women express a desire that men butt out, this is not, I believe, male bashing; it merely arises from women's recognition of the asymmetry of the burden of reproduction. And as we all know, there are so many men who are against choice.

[green 6]

Wow. Children aren't commodities we buy or sell, or pets we keep or put down. They are human beings. You have a right to do whatever you want with your body. But when your rights infringe on those of another, in this case the child, then others should have the right to step in and protect the child -- especially since he or she can't speak for himself or herself.

Sometime ago, Gadget, you asked the question why sexually active women who had no desire to have children did not get themselves sterilized. Well, you asked that question specifically of me since I was the one who ended up having an abortion due to a birth control failure. I told you that back in those days, the 1970s and early 1980s, it was impossible for a young and childless woman to find a doctor who would agree to sterilize her and that I would ask my very hip young female doc if this still holds true today. Well, it appears that it likely does. She turns down all requests for sterilization from the young and the childless on the grounds that they may change their minds later on. She says that sometimes people do and that they then thank her for having refused their requests.

[green 6]

And to try to state that abortion is the perfect solution is also a bad idea. I'm not saying there is a "perfect option" for every situation. Just that there are other options. The thread was for a poll to vote on where you stand on the issue. I voted how I felt and explained my reasoning for my views. Without attacking anyone.

Now, there has been some very good discussion since I opted to vote and explain, but there have been some very nasty statements from ladies basically telling to F*#k off since I am a man. That is the problem on both sides for the most part. The fanatics refuse to have a calm discussion.

As for the whole issue concerning women who are incapable of getting pregnant. Do not minimalize their pain. My DW is a great mother who went through 7 yrs of infertility before we were finally able to adopt Cera. The pain in her eyes I had to witness each and every month when her period came was devastating. I prayed to God daily to allow us to become pregnant. It was not to be. God had other plans for us. Luckily, Ashley chose to turn a bad situation for her into a great situation for us. She had just graduated h.s. and was to start college in the fall. She knew she could not handle that and a child and her child deserved better than she could give by just getting a job. Not downplaying single mothers as I was raised by one, just stating. She could have chosen to have an abortion, but chose the other route. And DW and I thank God every day for blessing us with Cera.

So, please, do not EVER downplay the pain and suffering of an infertile women. If you have not gone through the pain, suffering, and mental anguish of a woman going through it, or know of a close friend/relative who has, you know nothing of true pain.

Congratulations, Ceradad, on your child. I have known other folks who were in the same situation as you yourself and your wife. In fact my own brother's second wife is desperate to have a child. I have been finding your voice to be an interesting one because you speak both as an adoptee and as an adopting parent.

I, like all pro-choicers, want choice but only as a choice. This means that I believe that women who do find themselves pregnant must have the freedom to choose whether they will continue on with their pregnancies, as Cera's birth mother did, or terminate.

There was a time when there were so many babies resulting from unwanted pregnancies that there were not enough adoptive parents for all of them. These children grew up in orphanages. Their early lives were bleak indeed and thus they grew up handicapped for achieving success and happiness in their adult lives. Now, because of choice and because unwed mothers feel free to raise their children without social stigma demand has outstripped supply.

[gadgetlady 4]

women have the legal right to choice...

im glad the law is on my side

its a terrible thing and a very hard choice to make and so is adoption to carry a baby for 9months and let it go and never see it again ....that can leaves scars that can not heal ...

The problem is once a woman is pregnant, she is a mother and the baby exists. The only choice she has at that point is the choice between a live baby and a dead baby.

[BJean 16]

If you're telling someone that they must have a child, you're trying to play God and no one has that right over another human being's body and belief system.

You also have absolutely no right to force a woman to get an abortion. As far as I'm concerned, they are one and the same. Neither scenario is acceptable or fair or right.

Like I said before gadget, keep up all your good work in supporting women who have unplanned and unwanted pregnancies. You're providing a valuable service if you are helping to give them the adoption option. But your guidance should never become force.

[luluc 6]

Ah, I see this discussion dies down - then picks up steam every so often. Ceradad, not sure if you've read through the entire thread...There is a LOT to digest - but if you did you'll notice that my story started w/an abortion, followed by infertility (and failed IVF attempts), to now looking towards adoption. I see this only as a matter of Law, and for the Right to Remain for a Woman To Choose to Abort or Not to Abort. For as much as I am active in keeping this right in place - there is a huge problem with Adoption policies in this country. I can easily go overseas and get a child (baby) in a 1/4 of the time than here on US soil. The state I'm in, TX has over 250,000 children in Foster Care. If it were not for the pain experienced by a family member who tried to adopt her Foster Daughter (after 4+yrs of raising her - only to be turned back over to her crack head parents) my husband and I would go that route. I'd much prefer a kid here - Already in need of a loving home...

Your passion on the subject comes through in your writing, and your story is as compelling as the countless others that have posted here. A sensitive subject, your understanding of the problems of fertility and adoption - I'm sure make you a compassionate father.

[lisah25 3]

Now, as an adoptee, adoption also leaves scars on the child. Especially, adults who were adopted in the age of "closed" adoptions where we have no rights whatsoever. However, at least we are alive. And, to me, my daughter, my wife and my extended family, that is a very good thing.

What kind of scars do you "feel"? I ask because I was adopted as an infant 44 years ago, and I honestly don't feel like I have any scars or anything. The only thing I'd like to know that I don't know is more about family medical history then I do. But otherwise, I don't think much about it, and have no desire to meet my birth parents. I'm gratefull they made the choice they did, but other then that I don't feel a connection to them at all. My DH had a son before we started dating that they gave up for adoption, I'm fully in support of him looking for DH someday as I realize some people want that connection.

Forgive me if you've covered this, I came back to this thread late and have skimmed some. What rights would you as an adoptee like to have? As I said, I'd like more complete medical history, and one site where both adoptee and birth parent can register so that if, and only if, both want to they can meet.

Thanks!

[luluc 6]

***Sorry, fat'fingered*** 25,000 in Foster Care , TX (still Too Many).

[green 6]

The problem is once a woman is pregnant, she is a mother and the baby exists. The only choice she has at that point is the choice between a live baby and a dead baby.

Though this may be true, and the definition of what constitutes life does vary according to whom one consults, there still remains the question of the comparative values which we choose to place on life. This is why many individuals are comfortable with collateral/civilian damage in war zones. This is also why many individuals are comfortable with the death penalty even though it has been proven that some of the forensics and some of the police procedures have been proven to be faulty. This is also why many folks are able to skip out of a murder conviction when the background story consists of self-defense.

And of course this is also why the insurance pay-outs will be adjusted in wrongful death lawsuits. The deaths of a van full of doctors will be a greater loss to their own families and to our society than that of the loss of a van full of convicted felons. In brief, society will always be forced to make compromises; these will be based on a series of competing needs

In just such a way I feel that the rights of the pregnant woman must always trump those of the foetus. For the truth is that for many women who find themselves lumbered with unwanted pregnancies the situation is dire. And in the competition between the demands of the foetus and the person who is already here, the needs of that individual who is already alive and well and breathing and who is firmly planted in this life, I see no contest.