who supports right to choose

[ELENATION 0]

The thing is, Elena, so many of the so-called pro-life faction does fully intend to seek legislation to make abortion illegal, and to lobby to overturn Roe v. Wade, etc., and to use the police power of the state to force women to take actions against their will that have profound lifelong consequences for the mother. That's the whole issue as far as I'm concerned.

Let me ask you a question. You say that you are not trying to "force" anyone to do anything. Does that mean that you support Roe v. Wade? If not, if you support overturning Roe v. Wade, then you support a course of action designed to force women who disagree with you to live by your moral code. This is not a personal attack, it is just an discussion. But I think it is a point worth raising. If you support overturning Roe v. Wade, then in my opinion you cannot honestly say that you are not trying to "force" anything on anyone else. People who are interested in overturning Roe v. Wade have every intention of forcing women to live their lives by a moral code with which they profoundly disagree.

As for your own pro-life point of view, I agree with quite a bit of it. I'm not the least bit pro abortion. What I am is pro choice. I hope you continue to do whatever you can to convince other people of your point of view. Just please keep the police power of the government out of the life of my wife and daughter. This is a personal choice, not for someone else to decide.

Not so familiar with the Roe vs Wade, I'm a pro-lifer from my heart more than anything else, even though I know there are many other issues involved, so I need to read more about this to support or not support, but from what you said, without any further researching about it, I think I feel neutral, at least until I find out more information, I guess that's the only way I could fee until I know more, but I understand your point about keeping the police power out of our personal lives, I don't like it anymore than you do, I do wish there was a way to protect the baby's right as much as the baby's mother's right... I just wish...

[L8BloomR 1]

"I just wish....", also, Elena. Great post!

[ELENATION 0]

"I just wish....", also, Elena. Great post!

Thank you much LR, but isn't it true?

We worry about the mother's rights, which sure is a valid concern, but aren't we supposed to protect the baby's life and the baby's rights as well? we wish... I do too...:think

[sweethot143 2]

I think your views are very understandable. I support your right to do everything you can to influence others to believe the way you do. But to me, that is not the issue. The issue is, do you, and people who believe as you do, have the right to force others to live their lives by your beliefs through the establishment of laws and use of the criminal justice system. I do not believe you have that right. I understand that you will never be able to understand the pro-choice point of view. I have no interest in trying to convince you that this is the "right" point of view. But I do have an interest in stopping so-called "pro-life" advocates from using the police force of the state to require my wife, or my daughter to take actions in their own personal lives with which they strongly disagree.

To me, this debate is always focusing on irrelavant issues. One side tells a story about beating hearts in the womb, another side tells a story about great tragedy caused by a woman having a child she could not handle, etc. But to me, these things are not the issue. The issue is, does one side have the right to force everyone else to live by their view of morality. I say no. Everyone should feel free to do everything they can to convince others of their point of view. But no one should have the right to force others to live by their moral code in this most personal of all decisions.

I understand, of course, that "pro-life" people believe they have the right to force mothers to carry unwanted embryos to full term because they are "protecting the life of the baby." But the "life of the baby" is so intertwined with the life of the pregnant woman, and the consequences to the pregnant woman are so enormous, that her freedom of action must be protected. Unwanted pregnancy is never a happy thing, and sometimes it ends in tragedy either for the fetus or the mother. There is no "winner" with an unwanted pregnancy. The only real question is, who gets to decide what to do about it. Does the legislature get to make laws that determine the outcome, and force mothers to take actions that cause great tragedy in their lives? Or, is this a personal decision that must be made by the mother. I think the obvious answer is, the decision belongs to the pregnant woman.

good argument there. Under many circumstances I completely agree. I'm not a fan of "big" government either. However, from the pro-life point of view, this is murder and is illegal under any other circumstance. Why should it be ok here? I don't think there is a win win answer here. Either way, pro choice or pro-life someone has to sacrifice. Since the adults probably made the choices to get pregnant, then they should probably be the ones to sacrifice. (of course I am aware that there are times when the woman did not choose to have sex)

It's just too bad that the government needs to step in and protect these children. It's too bad that there isn't more education on what abortion is really doing, or more public knowledge on the how the baby is forming. Until I was pregnant myself, I didn't realize how early in my pregnancy the baby had a heart beat and was a baby. It was just never talked about and i didn't find it important to know until I wanted a baby myself. If I had gotten pregnant in high school I may have been easily persuaded into abortion because I was not educated on what it really meant.

I love Mitt Romeny's recent speeches about families. It starts with good values taught in the home. If girls were taught to value themselves more and to save themselves for marriage then maybe this wouldn't be such an issue. If we start at home with our children, taking responsibility for them, raising them to respect themselves and others, to work, to be civil, treat them as our most precious treasure, just teaching them values. Then maybe in a few generations we will live in a much different place. Where girls respect their bodies, and men and woman alike take responsibility for their own actions.

It's too bad that the government stepping in and making abortion illegal is the only way known right now to stop this awful awful practice then so be it. For now. At this point, is there a better way?

[marjon9 6]

good argument there. Under many circumstances I completely agree. I'm not a fan of "big" government either. However, from the pro-life point of view, this is murder and is illegal under any other circumstance. Why should it be ok here? I don't think there is a win win answer here. Either way, pro choice or pro-life someone has to sacrifice. Since the adults probably made the choices to get pregnant, then they should probably be the ones to sacrifice. (of course I am aware that there are times when the woman did not choose to have sex)

It's just too bad that the government needs to step in and protect these children. It's too bad that there isn't more education on what abortion is really doing, or more public knowledge on the how the baby is forming. Until I was pregnant myself, I didn't realize how early in my pregnancy the baby had a heart beat and was a baby. It was just never talked about and i didn't find it important to know until I wanted a baby myself. If I had gotten pregnant in high school I may have been easily persuaded into abortion because I was not educated on what it really meant.

I love Mitt Romeny's recent speeches about families. It starts with good values taught in the home. If girls were taught to value themselves more and to save themselves for marriage then maybe this wouldn't be such an issue. If we start at home with our children, taking responsibility for them, raising them to respect themselves and others, to work, to be civil, treat them as our most precious treasure, just teaching them values. Then maybe in a few generations we will live in a much different place. Where girls respect their bodies, and men and woman alike take responsibility for their own actions.

It's too bad that the government stepping in and making abortion illegal is the only way known right now to stop this awful awful practice then so be it. For now. At this point, is there a better way?

The fact of the matter is many people do not believe that an 8 or 12 week old embryo is a "baby," and many people do not agree that abortion is an "awful, awful" practice. In addition, even if people agree that abortion is "awful," they believe that the "awful" consequences to the mother deserve priority in this situation where there can be no winner. I know you disagree with these things, and I respect your opinion. But regardless of how heartfelt your beliefs may be, you do not have the right to force your views on others, and use the power of the state to force women to follow a course of action they do not believe in, and that has lifetime consequences.

Many people believe that an 8 or 12 week old fetus is a "baby." But the fact is, many people do not. You make the argument that we need to step in and help these "babies." But when you make that argument you are assuming that you are correct about the exact thing that is in dispute. You assume that you are right that a fetus is a "baby," and that therefore everyone else should live by that rule. But the whole point is, not everyone agrees with that. You can't succeed in this argument by simply saying "I'm right because, well, I just know I am." That is not a good enough basis for forcing your morality on people who disagree with you. In fact, probably the majority of Americans do not agree with you on that point.

[sweethot143 2]

The fact of the matter is many people do not believe that an 8 or 12 week old embryo is a "baby," and many people do not agree that abortion is an "awful, awful" practice. In addition, even if people agree that abortion is "awful," they believe that the "awful" consequences to the mother deserve priority in this situation where there can be no winner. I know you disagree with these things, and I respect your opinion. But regardless of how heartfelt your beliefs may be, you do not have the right to force your views on others, and use the power of the state to force women to follow a course of action they do not believe in, and that has lifetime consequences.

Many people believe that an 8 or 12 week old fetus is a "baby." But the fact is, many people do not. You make the argument that we need to step in and help these "babies." But when you make that argument you are assuming that you are correct about the exact thing that is in dispute. You assume that you are right that a fetus is a "baby," and that therefore everyone else should live by that rule. But the whole point is, not everyone agrees with that. You can't succeed in this argument by simply saying "I'm right because, well, I just know I am." That is not a good enough basis for forcing your morality on people who disagree with you. In fact, probably the majority of Americans do not agree with you on that point.

that is why I think that there should be more education on when the baby is formed. Long before 8 or 12 weeks the babies heart is beating. Why is there such a difference in opinion in that matter? Is it so murder can be justified?

I honestly do not care if people believe as I do. Most don't infact. I am tolerant of others beliefs, and wish that there were a better option for these woman and babies. I don't care what religion, color or what beliefs people have. I really don't.

So why do you think the baby is a fetus rather than a baby?

[ELENATION 0]

good argument there. Under many circumstances I completely agree. I'm not a fan of "big" government either. However, from the pro-life point of view, this is murder and is illegal under any other circumstance. Why should it be ok here? I don't think there is a win win answer here. Either way, pro choice or pro-life someone has to sacrifice. Since the adults probably made the choices to get pregnant, then they should probably be the ones to sacrifice. (of course I am aware that there are times when the woman did not choose to have sex)

It's just too bad that the government needs to step in and protect these children. It's too bad that there isn't more education on what abortion is really doing, or more public knowledge on the how the baby is forming. Until I was pregnant myself, I didn't realize how early in my pregnancy the baby had a heart beat and was a baby. It was just never talked about and i didn't find it important to know until I wanted a baby myself. If I had gotten pregnant in high school I may have been easily persuaded into abortion because I was not educated on what it really meant.

I love Mitt Romeny's recent speeches about families. It starts with good values taught in the home. If girls were taught to value themselves more and to save themselves for marriage then maybe this wouldn't be such an issue. If we start at home with our children, taking responsibility for them, raising them to respect themselves and others, to work, to be civil, treat them as our most precious treasure, just teaching them values. Then maybe in a few generations we will live in a much different place. Where girls respect their bodies, and men and woman alike take responsibility for their own actions.

It's too bad that the government stepping in and making abortion illegal is the only way known right now to stop this awful awful practice then so be it. For now. At this point, is there a better way?

That is exactly what I was trying to say in my previous post, but you said it so much better! Thank you.

[marjon9 6]

that is why I think that there should be more education on when the baby is formed. Long before 8 or 12 weeks the babies heart is beating. Why is there such a difference in opinion in that matter? Is it so murder can be justified?

I honestly do not care if people believe as I do. Most don't infact. I am tolerant of others beliefs, and wish that there were a better option for these woman and babies. I don't care what religion, color or what beliefs people have. I really don't.

So why do you think the baby is a fetus rather than a baby?

My opinion on the matter is not the point. The fact is, people disagree about it. You ask "why is there such a difference of opinion on that?" Well, I don't really know why, but clearly there is. In fact, it appears that the majority of Americans disagree with you on this issue. I have heard many people say, for example, that they do not believe that an embryo that is months away from viability outside the womb is a "human being." I'm simply saying that this is a matter of conscience not of science.

You say that this is why we need more "education" about when a baby is formed, but it's not a matter of "education." Many pro-choice people are fully aware that a heartbeat can be detected at an early point. They still, in their own soul and in their own conscience, do not believe this is a "baby." I fully understand that you think it is. But that does not give you the right to force that view on others, especially when the consequences are so great in the life of the other person. You don't have the right to say "I'm correct about this, because, I just know I am, and therefore I get to send the police out to your house and force you to live by my moral code." No matter how sure you are that you are right, you don't get to force that view on others. Especially when the "others" are in the majority.

[ELENATION 0]

the post saying...

"You assume that you are right that a fetus is a "baby," and that therefore everyone else should live by that rule. But the whole point is, not everyone agrees with that. You can't succeed in this argument by simply saying "I'm right because, well, I just know I am." That is not a good enough basis for forcing your morality on people who disagree with you."

I'm sorry to hear this comment because I completely understand what you said and I know you were not arguing because you knew you were right and that was it.... you were making very good points and obviously you were not trying to force your morality on other people ... I do not understand why would anybody get all that from what you said.... I like you, wish there were other ways of preventing abortion other than have the government involved... but at the same time, for those who agree that life is at conception, it's a crime to perform abortion, like you said, maybe it's a no win situation... They can ask any woman who has suffered the physical and emotional pain of a miscarriage and I'll bet you won't find anyone who will say she lost her first-trimester fetus. She'll tell you she lost her baby. Pro-life or pro-choice, doesn't matter. Ultimately discussing this issue is extremely complex and I definitely feel for the mother who must carry an unwanted pregnancy, but I also feel for the baby, who maybe a fetus for some but not for everyone, but who determines who's right? can it even be determined fairly?

[sweethot143 2]

I think it would be a good thing to educate these girls who are going into the clinic to make their "choice" to rid themselves of this responsibility that they most likely put upon themselves. Maybe if they had to watch a video or read something that showed them what their baby looks like at the point in their pregnancy and what the procedure entails, what happens to the fetus or baby, and then let them make their "choice".

In no other circumstance is it ok, to take the life of a "fetus" or baby. If someone other than the mother makes that choice then it's considered a baby and murder. am i wrong?

I can't believe that all the woman making this choice fully understand what they have done, what they created. It's not right to let them make such a choice without understanding it.

[gadgetlady 4]

Fetus is a Latin word meaning "unborn child" or "little one". It is just a stage of human development, as is adolescence. The unborn baby is not something other than a human being just because his or her mother decides so in her own mind.

[sweethot143 2]

Fetus is a Latin word meaning "unborn child" or "little one". It is just a stage of human development, as is adolescence. The unborn baby is not something other than a human being just because his or her mother decides so in her own mind.

thank you, so there is really no scientific argument about when the baby is a baby. it's just whatever makes the procedure seem more acceptable? Interesting.

I think the pro-choice argument could be used correctly in so many other circumstances, like wearing your seatbelt. If you choose to increase your chances of death behind the wheel, then why does the government get to step in on that one? But not killing an unborn child because you created it at an inconvenient time in your life. That's not right by any standards.

[ELENATION 0]

"Many pro-choice people are fully aware that a heartbeat can be detected at an early point. They still, in their own soul and in their own conscience, do not believe this is a "baby"

The same way that pro choice people may believe that pro-lifers are wrong for believing that life begins at conception, we believe some women are wrong for not understanding that a baby is conceived at "conception" and that what they believe in their conscience and soul about the moment a baby is concieved is wrong, both sides believe that the other side is wrong, neither side is trying to force its beliefs on others, they are expressing their opinions here in LBT

[gadgetlady 4]

thank you, so there is really no scientific argument about when the baby is a baby.

Absolutely. The argument is about when the second human life has value.

I think the pro-choice argument could be used correctly in so many other circumstances, like wearing your seatbelt. If you choose to increase your chances of death behind the wheel, then why does the government get to step in on that one? But not killing an unborn child because you created it at an inconvenient time in your life. That's not right by any standards.

Good analogy. Quite frankly, when the decision you make is about your own life alone, I am 100% in favor of choice. Seat belts, drug use, whatever. When another life hangs in the balance, that's when it's the government's job to step in.

[gadgetlady 4]

They still, in their own soul and in their own conscience, do not believe this is a "baby"

Science means knowledge. Conscience is therefore etymologically defined as "with knowledge". What a person "believes in their own soul" isn't necessarily reality or truth, as "the heart is deceitful above all things". What matters is the science surrounding the issue, the human-ness of the unborn.