who supports right to choose

[ELENATION 0]

Many (not all) doctors perform abortions and they make money.

Many (not all) priests and ministers rape little boys and they make money too.

Your point is silly.

Maybe they put their patients wishes over your religion. They have the right.

OK, did I miss something? what point are you trying to make? I believe what LR said was regarding what we were talking about....why silly?:help:

[ELENATION 0]

Will you please show me where I said that doctors, or ANY doctor, should not earn money?? I haven't "dodged" anything.... I keep explaining and explaining to people who obviously want to put words in my mouth that were never said or implied. Again, for the last time: The comment was made that a particular abortion doctor was "courageous" for doing a late-term abortion. I merely said that he also earned money for it. There was no attack on the doctor, just a reminder that there could be other reasons for a doctor doing something beyond just being a brave guy. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with earning money....I do it myself!

Sheeeeeesh.......

You know, we could be talking about abortion, doctors, it doesn't matter, some people jump in just to attack Christianity.... even if the comments sometimes make no sense.... so lame...so hateful.... but we are in R&R right! so I guess that makes it ok....

[ELENATION 0]

In the eyes of a pro-abortioners, in the eyes of an atheist this doctor could be all courageous you want, in my eyes NO!!!!!!!!! you wanted a straight answer right? of course, I know you won't be satisfied with this answer either.... well, who cares really, since in my eyes as in the eyes of pro-lifers abortion means taking a baby's life, how the heck would that be courageous? not to me! in my opinion this doctor is merely doing what he wants according to the way he feels and I feel totally different because I see abortion differently.., so what seems courageous to you may seem disgusting to me... He can keep doing what he wants and he can keep being a hero to you, I will keep doing what I feel...

[Mariposa Bella 3]

I am pro life. I have thought very deeply on the whole rape issue. I can tell you that I personally could put it behind me and love the child - even if that child was the image of the rapist. I've carried 3 children in my womb and I fell in love with each one of them even before I knew for a fact that conception had taken place. I know several women (with whom I'm very close with, sil's, bf's) who have had abortions and still mourn over the lost child. I also know a woman who had an affair, got pg with her 5th child (dh had a vasc. after #4) call her stupid if you like but she was in a situation where abortion would have been the easiest way out. She chose to have the child, her dh has accepted the child as his own - tell me how difficult that would be? The baby of the family is now in 1st grade and looks like her daddy. I'm sure dh sees the other man in that child - I believe we as humans are given a gift in bearing life. I personally would never abort a child, and if there is no other answer for that raped/incested woman I would say there are way too many loving people out there who would adopt that child then to see it aborted. Will she be traumatized? Yes but she will be whether she conceived or not - if she gives a child up will it come back to haunt her? No more then the child she aborts -

Oh, btw... I spanked my children too.[/quote

Your post is great.

I am pro-life. I have held two of my own babies lifeless bodies in my arms. I don't understand how anyone could take a childs life. My son died at 24 weeks, he weighed 1 lb 4 oz and my daughter died at birth, she weighed 5 lbs 7 oz. They were so beautiful. If you have never endured a loss so great as this and felt the pain, you are very blessed. I am fortunate and very blessed to now have 3 awesome kids. I thank God for them everyday. I loved each of my five children from the moment they were conceived. Yes, I know the exact moment in which each one of my children were conceived.

If you are a sexually active person and don't want to get pregnant, there are other/many options out there other than abortion..I have an aunt that chose to get an abortion due to an unwanted pregnancy and to this date she regrets that decision. She will forever be haunted by it. She has dreams of a child calling her name in her sleep. But it is too late, she chose to kill her child.

[ELENATION 0]

One of the things I always look at when I read these rants are the ages of those posting. 20 years old is a very typical debating age. As much as they want to feel like they know all and their beliefs are the bottom line often life changes a person. Life lessons come from living, it is much harder for me to respect a reply from Rob then L8bloomr or Wasa only bc they have lived and learned. So rarely will I join in on these rants and raves, it just seems pointless and fruitless. Like I said before I doubt that I'm going to change anyones mind on this subject, but I do think that as person lives they will evolve and what Rob feels so strongly about today may well be the opposite of how he feels 25 years from now.

Once again the point was turned on Christians and how we try to push our beliefs on others. If you read my orgional post I did not say anything about God said not to have an abortion. I spoke about the love I would feel for the child and the gift of life that we have been given, I didn't say I'm against abortion bc I'm a Christian and its wrong. It just amazes me how a subject as abortion can change into how many Christians are getting divorced? Give me a break, are you for real? How many prisoners are Christian, how many pick their nose? Good grief. How many people call themself Christian and aren't even followers of Christ? And for all of your information, I'm half Jewish - I have one brother who is a messianic rabbi and another who is a pastor. I come from a family who has had religious debates for decades. This isn't an issue of pushing my religious beliefs on you. This is an issue of the gift of life and who are we to decide we can 'choose' to end it? If you don't want to get pregnant do something to prevent it. Don't twist my words and say if we prevent it its the same as ending it - no - until conception its not a life.

As to choosing the life of the child over the mother, someone get some stats and tell me just how many abortion clinics are there for the "medical" aspect, or how many rape/incest abortions are performed. Again - get real! Those abortions are miniscule compared to the "birth control" abortions.

Ok - thats it, I've stayed in the rants and raves a heck of a lot longer then I ever intended.

Bravo! that was very well said. every single word...

Thanks

Elena:D

[L8BloomR 1]

[quote name=Mariposa Bella;643911

I am pro-life. I have held two of my own babies lifeless bodies in my arms. I don't understand how anyone could take a childs life. My son died at 24 weeks' date=' he weighed 1 lb 4 oz and my daughter died at birth, she weighed 5 lbs 7 oz. They were so beautiful. If you have never endured a loss so great as this and felt the pain, you are very blessed. I am fortunate and very blessed to now have 3 awesome kids. I thank God for them everyday. I loved each of my five children from the moment they were conceived. Yes, I know the exact moment in which each one of my children were conceived.

If you are a sexually active person and don't want to get pregnant, there are other/many options out there other than abortion..I have an aunt that chose to get an abortion due to an unwanted pregnancy and to this date she regrets that decision. She will forever be haunted by it. She has dreams of a child calling her name in her sleep. But it is too late, she chose to kill her child.[/quote]

My heart breaks for you....what heartache you have had to endure. I know a little of what you feel. I lost a baby after 2 1/2 months of pregnancy and even though I never knew him/her, I still cry when I allow myself to think more than briefly about it. How much worse for you to know your little ones and lose them. I am so sorry. But I am so glad you have been blessed with 3 more. God is looking out for you, and I am so happy for you. Thank you for posting your story.

[green 6]

Ok...lets do a hypothetical scenario.

1. You are a nazi concentration camp survivor

2. You are freed and you study medicine

3. You become a doctor.

4. You are ahead of your time before it's legal in your country to perform a procedure (in the sense that you see it as a medical procedure and they see it as a crime)

5. You openly claim what you have done, because you are a strong believer in the fact that it is safe and better than the alternative (black market procedures/ unsafe practices)

6. You go to court all the way until the supreme court claims you are right

7. Your clinics are at constant threat from violence and harrasment.

Regardless of what procedure...Is this person not courageous?

(this is the true story of Dr. Henry Morgentaler)

Thanks for posting this, Rob. My brother, a doctor by the way, and his eldest daughter saw Dr. Morgentaler once while they were skiing. My niece who was quite young at the time asked my brother who that funny looking little man was and my brother replied that she was looking at the greatest friend that Canadian women have. Much later when it seemed that certain elements at the University of Western Ontario wanted to block the university's plans to award him an honourary doctorat an on-line petition was set up. That same niece, now a mother herself, forwarded the petition to me, I signed it, and I repeated the little story which I have mentioned above in the comments section. :ranger:

[sweethot143 2]

It always amazes me how many people are pro-murder. craziness. It's scary what people choose to do with another life.

[green 6]

Some of you good women have mentioned that you are anti-abortion because you yourselves have very much wanted and loved your babies even when they were in utero and thus couldn't conceive of any woman feeling otherwise. You have made very personal and very powerful statements about your own feelings and your own lives and about the lives of some of the women whom you know intimately. This has left me thinking that lucky are the children who have you as their mothers. And that you sound like warm and maternal people.

Nevertheless, these are your feelings and in fact your comments would be categorized as anecdotal evidence by any researcher. Those engaging in research of this kind would take your testimony and note down that a certain number of women strongly feel .... concerning this issue. They would of course count the number of women who feel the way you do and then weigh that number against a different set of women, ones who have an entirely different array of reactions towards pregnancy and motherhood.

For the truth is that many women cannot deal with pregnancy for many reasons. There are some who cannot deal with this because it falls at the wrong period in her life. Let us say that she is still in highschool and she has drunkenly fooled around on prom night, or that she is in the midst of her academics at university, or that her marriage is already crashing, or that she is a single mum and too poor to take on another kid.... These are only some of the scenarios which do take place.

As for L8BloomR's remark that there are other options available out there for the sexually active person, well, yes there are but these are not always failsafe. I was sexually active since I was 19, had absolutely zero desire to ever have a child, and thus took care of business; imagine my horror when I found myself pregnant at the age of 32. I arranged for an abortion ASAP and because I am neither maternal nor imaginative I have never been bothered by a sense of guilt, nor by visitations of unborn baby Greens in my dreams. My story, also anecdotal evidence, would be listed in a different category of experience by those researchers, wouldn't it?

This business of fertility is very much a loaded issue. I have seen friends go crazy with grief because they are unable to have children. My brother's second wife is desperate to have a child and would be a fabulous mum. And it is certain that you who have posted above adore your maternal roles. But please acknowledge that there are many women out there who find what you embrace to be burdensome and, yes, terrifying. In the situation of an unwillingly pregnant woman and a foetus, there is the issue of competing rights. We who are pro-choice consider that the rights of the mother trump those of the foetus.

[joe7777 1]

One of the things I always look at when I read these rants are the ages of those posting. 20 years old is a very typical debating age. As much as they want to feel like they know all and their beliefs are the bottom line often life changes a person. Life lessons come from living, it is much harder for me to respect a reply from Rob then L8bloomr or Wasa only bc they have lived and learned. So rarely will I join in on these rants and raves, it just seems pointless and fruitless. Like I said before I doubt that I'm going to change anyones mind on this subject, but I do think that as person lives they will evolve and what Rob feels so strongly about today may well be the opposite of how he feels 25 years from now.

Do you think because of my age i am not capable of rational argument? I would first like to say that the argument YOU made is not logical, actually it's a logical fallacy. Ad hominem, i.e. consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. How does my age affect this? If i were to ask you what your level of education was and you were to answer high school graduate or community college graduate, could i attack you on the grounds of my being a university graduate? What if i had a masters degree (in 2-3 years i will) ?

I think that as a person, i am more mature than some people twice my age, because i have actually grown into my own person. Most people will follow blindly in what they were tought (ever wonder why you're not hindu or muslim?? No it's not because catholicism has the better answers or is MORE righteous. It's because that's how you were raised) Well...i broke those bonds and found my own answers. They rest in reason and rationality. My latest posts have been backed by scientific journals, is that not good enough for you?

[joe7777 1]

In the eyes of a pro-abortioners, in the eyes of an atheist this doctor could be all courageous you want, in my eyes NO!!!!!!!!! you wanted a straight answer right? of course, I know you won't be satisfied with this answer either.... well, who cares really, since in my eyes as in the eyes of pro-lifers abortion means taking a baby's life, how the heck would that be courageous? not to me! in my opinion this doctor is merely doing what he wants according to the way he feels and I feel totally different because I see abortion differently.., so what seems courageous to you may seem disgusting to me... He can keep doing what he wants and he can keep being a hero to you, I will keep doing what I feel...

And you.... You don't answer my hypothetical scenario. I did NOT say abortion was the procedure. Just putting it so that you are on the same viewpoint as I. You see, to me an abortion is a medical procedure, to you it's murder. Thats why i didnt specify. Now if that doctor was ANY other doctor would he not be courageous?

If he was a doctor treating AIDS and that was illegal because the country you live in believes its a punishment from god and aiding someone affected by it is wrong. Would you think someone fighting for what he believes is right to be courageous? I would be hard pressed to find someone who doesnt.

[DerickM 1]

Is it not even less right to bring unwanted children into lifelong suffering and to strip women of thier choice? Making abortion illegal is not the way to prevent it. There is a much larger picture that starts with much deeper roots.

Another question, how many that are anti-abortion are men? How many of them will get pregnant?

[L8BloomR 1]

Some of you good women have mentioned that you are anti-abortion because you yourselves have very much wanted and loved your babies even when they were in utero and thus couldn't conceive of any woman feeling otherwise. You have made very personal and very powerful statements about your own feelings and your own lives and about the lives of some of the women whom you know intimately. This has left me thinking that lucky are the children who have you as their mothers. And that you sound like warm and maternal people.

Nevertheless, these are your feelings and in fact your comments would be categorized as anecdotal evidence by any researcher. Those engaging in research of this kind would take your testimony and note down that a certain number of women strongly feel .... concerning this issue. They would of course count the number of women who feel the way you do and then weigh that number against a different set of women, ones who have an entirely different array of reactions towards pregnancy and motherhood.

For the truth is that many women cannot deal with pregnancy for many reasons. There are some who cannot deal with this because it falls at the wrong period in her life. Let us say that she is still in highschool and she has drunkenly fooled around on prom night, or that she is in the midst of her academics at university, or that her marriage is already crashing, or that she is a single mum and too poor to take on another kid.... These are only some of the scenarios which do take place.

As for L8BloomR's remark that there are other options available out there for the sexually active person, well, yes there are but these are not always failsafe. I was sexually active since I was 19, had absolutely zero desire to ever have a child, and thus took care of business; imagine my horror when I found myself pregnant at the age of 32. I arranged for an abortion ASAP and because I am neither maternal nor imaginative I have never been bothered by a sense of guilt, nor by visitations of unborn baby Greens in my dreams. My story, also anecdotal evidence, would be listed in a different category of experience by those researchers, wouldn't it?

This business of fertility is very much a loaded issue. I have seen friends go crazy with grief because they are unable to have children. My brother's second wife is desperate to have a child and would be a fabulous mum. And it is certain that you who have posted above adore your maternal roles. But please acknowledge that there are many women out there who find what you embrace to be burdensome and, yes, terrifying. In the situation of an unwillingly pregnant woman and a foetus, there is the issue of competing rights. We who are pro-choice consider that the rights of the mother trump those of the foetus.

Just to clarify, Green, the quote you attributed to me came from MariposaBella. In quoting her post in mine, I couldn't get it to highlight as hers and so it looks like it came from me. Hopefully, that won't happen again with this quote from you.

Green, I love the way you expressed yourself in this post. Believe it or not, I agree with everything you said! I appreciate your understanding of the maternal feelings so many of us have here...it helps so much to have that acknowledged during debates such as this. And I think most of us also can understand that feeling of "uh, oh, I'm pregnant" and the nervous, maybe even desperate feelings we can have, too. Your last line, though, really sums up why we discuss this over and over, and why I think we will continue to, unfortunately. Pro-lifers choose the child, pro-choicers choose the mother. Both sides feel compelled to try to protect the rights of the side they have chosen. I know that the solution appears to be "do nothing", and to not force either side to do what they are uncomfortable with. The only problem with that for pro-lifers is that they see the innocent unborn as the losers in that scenario. Yet I can admit that forcing others to do what they are uncomfortable with is also not a perfect solution. I don't have the answer... I can only hope that by discussing this again and again we can at least increase the understanding between both sides and discard the bitterness and hatred.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I am amazed at the level of sarcasm and mean spiritness coming from you. I don't owe you an answer in the amount of time you allot for it. I do research before I answer, and I have never shied away from answering anything. But I am also busy with my real life and can't spend unlimited/uninterrupted time always when I want. My DH comes in and out of the room when I am using the computer, also. So it can take a few minutes to get an answer typed. Sorry if you don't have anything else to do but attack others when they don't respond in the way you think they should. I always answer anyone who addresses me, but in this case, the "haha" stuff is too childish to even relate to. I don't post just to see my own words; I like thoughtful debate and civil exchanges. It is obvious that this had degenerated into something else. It is midnight here and I am done for the night.

Do you realize it would have been faster and easier to answer the questions vs. writing out in detail why you won't respond?

The questions are not tough. They are pretty simple. But the above is what I expect in this type of debate. Instead of admitting someone else has a point, attack the person instead of agreeing on small points.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

OK, did I miss something? what point are you trying to make? I believe what LR said was regarding what we were talking about....why silly?:help:

The point I was trying to make was the absurdity of that particular argument.

OMZ I hate abortion debates. Why did I join this one?? Yikes.