who supports right to choose

[L8BloomR 1]

Just poking my nose in here, catching up on the day . . . would love to help you, L8BloomR and StephC, but I'm on a cruise right now and have better things to do -- besides, clearly you don't need me {grin}.

StephC, love your sentiments. Green and Devana, incredible stories about "other" religions -- some people are so short-sighted! I can just see you chuckling as you remember -- I laughed, too.

As to questions of abortionists doing it for the money, I believe this factor is one of many. If you listen to former abortionists who are now pro-life, they do cite the money as having been a big factor for them. I can provide a link to substantiate if anyone wants it -- when I get back from the cruise :-)

Hope you are having a great cruise, Gadgetlady! Thanks for checking in...

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

I am not the one speaking in absolutes. I am not the one making statements stating as fact that certain people are more likely to be a criminal or that a doctor who performs late-terms abortions is "courageous". I don't know why you made such a harsh remark and you directed it at the wrong person. I merely pointed out that these doctors make money doing this, they are not doing it merely as a public service as was implied. If you don't agree, state your reasons why. Don't scold me on how to state an opinion, please. I was much more polite in my post than you just were to me.

Many (not all) doctors perform abortions and they make money.

Many (not all) priests and ministers rape little boys and they make money too.

Your point is silly.

Maybe they put their patients wishes over your religion. They have the right.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

BTW - the prisons are full of Christians? Of course they are, they've hit rock bottom and have no where to turn but up.

Do you think I'm being sarcastic? My dear brother fell into a pit of drugs - after 20 years of marriage his wife left - he lost his job, family and life - he ended up so addicted that he knew a treatment center wouldn't work - he ended up in prison. Gave his life to God, got his life back. He's a year out, clean and has his entire family back -even the ex-wife (thats another story) - Without God - Jesus - in his life he would be right back out on the streets again. Yeah, I believe the prison is full of Christians. BUT wait - didn't I read that Muslims were the fastest growing religion in America? Hmmm? CNN - Fast-growing Islam winning converts in Western world - Apr. 14, 1997

The second-largest religion in the world after Christianity, Islam is also the fastest-growing religion. In the United States, for example, nearly 80 percent of the more than 1,200 mosques have been built in the past 12 years.

I wonder if Muslims believe in abortion?

Again, a point that matters none. Muslims may be the fastest growing group but Christians still outnumber them by 10 fold+. The point is simple, Christianity does NOT stop people from doing bad, they do it themselves and should take full credit for the good as well as the bad.

I would never have an abortion but that does not mean I have the right to inflict my beliefs upon others. I think two adults living together is just fine too, does that mean YOU have to do it? Of course not.

Anti-abortion folks typically base their abortion beliefs on religion and what is religion? Religion is a BELIEF and not a fact. If it was a fact you wouldn't need faith. Thus, a fact. I think it is a very dangerous idea to begin inflicting beliefs on others. As you say, the next majority might be Muslims, do you want them inflicting their beliefs upon you? No? Then set the rules today. Keep your religion to yourselves and stop inflicting it on others or your grandchildren may be living lives very different from your own and you will only have yourselves to blame.

[L8BloomR 1]

Many (not all) doctors perform abortions and they make money.

Many (not all) priests and ministers rape little boys and they make money too.

Your point is silly.

Maybe they put their patients wishes over your religion. They have the right.

And your point makes no sense.... Have you even read the last page or two of this thread? I have no idea how this relates to my posts at all. Stating the obvious that doctors earn money for what they do was a way to make the point that an abortion doctor isn't somehow more altruistic than others. It was not an attack on anyone and certainly had nothing to do with patient wishes vs. my religion. WTH??

[joe7777 1]

Ok...lets do a hypothetical scenario.

1. You are a nazi concentration camp survivor

2. You are freed and you study medicine

3. You become a doctor.

4. You are ahead of your time before it's legal in your country to perform a procedure (in the sense that you see it as a medical procedure and they see it as a crime)

5. You openly claim what you have done, because you are a strong believer in the fact that it is safe and better than the alternative (black market procedures/ unsafe practices)

6. You go to court all the way until the supreme court claims you are right

7. Your clinics are at constant threat from violence and harrasment.

Regardless of what procedure...Is this person not courageous?

(this is the true story of Dr. Henry Morgentaler)

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

And your point makes no sense.... Have you even read the last page or two of this thread? I have no idea how this relates to my posts at all. Stating the obvious that doctors earn money for what they do was a way to make the point that an abortion doctor isn't somehow more altruistic than others. It was not an attack on anyone and certainly had nothing to do with patient wishes vs. my religion. WTH??

They are a profession just like any other. Are you suggesting doctors should not earn a living? What specifically is your point? No more dodges, just get to the point. What is wrong with ANY doctor making a living if he performs abortions?

[joe7777 1]

A little snippet from Annals of Surgery.Combat Casualty Care and Surgical Progress

Basil A. Pruitt, Jr, MD, FACSFrom the Department of Surgery, University of Texas Health Science Center, San Antonio, TX.

Surgical progress was further impeded in 1163 when the Council of Tours issued the “Ecclesia Abhorret a Sanguine” (“the church abhors bloodshed”) edict.6 This edict removed surgery from the practice of physicians, most of whom at that time were also clergymen, and in effect assigned an inferior status to surgical practice as compared with the practice of medicine, which further separated medicine and surgery.

Wow, isnt the catholic church just a dandy! You really have to look at religion as a whole, you cant just pick and choose the parts you like best.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

>>Wow, isnt the catholic church just a dandy! You really have to look at religion as a whole, you cant just pick and choose the parts you like best.<<

Very true. But people do it anyway. They pick and choose bits and pieces of the bible as it suits them. They also use that same bible to snub their noses at those who are at least honest about the same practice.

[joe7777 1]

I realize my last quoted article was REALLY weak(the one on atheism vs catholics in prison)...I'm going to start doing more thorough research. As you can see...Annals of surgery is the first of many.

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Rob....

Do a search at ReligiousTolerance.org by the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance.

Mostly, check out religion stats. It's quite the eye opener. And you can't find a more non-biased source of information.

[L8BloomR 1]

They are a profession just like any other. Are you suggesting doctors should not earn a living? What specifically is your point? No more dodges, just get to the point. What is wrong with ANY doctor making a living if he performs abortions?

Will you please show me where I said that doctors, or ANY doctor, should not earn money?? I haven't "dodged" anything.... I keep explaining and explaining to people who obviously want to put words in my mouth that were never said or implied. Again, for the last time: The comment was made that a particular abortion doctor was "courageous" for doing a late-term abortion. I merely said that he also earned money for it. There was no attack on the doctor, just a reminder that there could be other reasons for a doctor doing something beyond just being a brave guy. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with earning money....I do it myself!

Sheeeeeesh.......

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Will you please show me where I said that doctors, or ANY doctor, should not earn money?? I haven't "dodged" anything.... I keep explaining and explaining to people who obviously want to put words in my mouth that were never said or implied. Again, for the last time: The comment was made that a particular abortion doctor was "courageous" for doing a late-term abortion. I merely said that he also earned money for it. There was no attack on the doctor, just a reminder that there could be other reasons for a doctor doing something beyond just being a brave guy. Obviously, there is nothing wrong with earning money....I do it myself!

Sheeeeeesh.......

There is a Catholic priest in Iraq that is being shot at non stop for doing what he believes is right, keeping Christianity in the country. His life is in danger on a daily basis, he risks being thrown in an Iraq jail on a daily basis.

He is paid by the Vatican.

Would you consider him courageous?

A yes or no is acceptable.

[joe7777 1]

Around 57,000 unsafe abortions were being performed in Nepal every year, resulting in complications responsible for at least 20% of maternal deaths. However, the recent legalisation of abortion up to 90 days of pregnancy (or up to 18 weeks if pregnancy resulted from rape) is beginning to address this problem as government abortion

clinics are being set up.

Abortion is illegal in Egypt unless the woman's life is in imminent danger. Damage to the fetus is not accepted as a reason for abortion, a legal position emphasised by a recent fatwa that says that “it is impermissible for the mother to induce abortion [even] if it is proven that the fetus is deformed or suffers from mental retardation… It is not a justifiable excuse”. Nevertheless, women regularly find ways to end unwanted pregnancies. A 1996 study among 1,300 Egyptian women by the Cairo Demographic Centre found that one-third had attempted to terminate a pregnancy. Other studies suggest that about one-third of abortions are carried out without medical supervision, with women trying traditional remedies or overdoses of aspirin or quinine, at a risk to their own lives.

Reproductive Health Matters, vol.12, no.24, pp.217, 2004

[joe7777 1]

The odds are 1 in 7 (14.3%) that if you're a pregnant woman in Niger, you will die in childbirth. - Time Magazine, 10/29/07 (not as great as the other 2...but still)

Now is that not a women's health issue (WHO seems to think so, and these are the people who issue such publications as the world health report)

[WASaBubbleButt 41]

Rob...

With all due respect, with these links you are assuming the religious types CARE about the mother.

You must remember that many only care about the baby, the mother can forget any sense of compassion UNLESS she does as the religious request. Then she'll get compassion, that's where it ends.