who supports right to choose

[j_war06 0]

Jodie hasn't said anything and I've started and deleted my response several times, but I have to say something. I'm outraged on her behalf.

Sorry I haven't been around for the past few days. I REALLY am. won't go into the details, but you'd be surprised about what is going on in my life. Posting here takes a backseat, big time.

gadget you're badgering me to supply names of early feminists who were not pro-life, but you're the one who made the statement that ALL early feminists were pro-life. It is up to you to provide proof of that. You have not provided proof of that by naming some names. It is not incumbent upon me to furnish you names of early feminists who were not pro-life. I just know that you don't have any proof of what you claim. No studies have been established or background done to prove what you say about all early feminists being pro-life. We don't even know who ALL the early feminists were. Consequently as I have suspected all along, much of what you say is wishful thinking on your part. As I have seen in the past, many of the sources you cite here are from extreme and biased origins. Which is fine by me. That's your perrogative to post such things to make your point. But I hope you don't think that all of us fail to understand what you're doing.

Jodie- as when we exhanged talking points previously, I feel very sorry for you. I know you will become defensive and outraged because I said that. But I can't help feeling sorry for you and way you describe your life and your baby's father and the way your child was conceived. When you have full-time, total and complete responsibility for a small human being who looks to you for its' very survival, 24/7, being so sure of yourself could certainly come in handy. But I just think there will be many times when you'll be wondering what the heck you were thinking when you became pregnant.

I'm shocked to see your sonogram that you say was made at 6-7 weeks gestation (was it?). My daughter just had a sonogram at 8 weeks gestation and the baby is nowhere near that developed.

Listen you all, it's easy to understand... a fertilized egg is a living growing thing which is fully a part of its' mother-host. It is not an individual no matter how much you want that to be true. You need to just go with your instincts and beliefs and forget trying to convince people that a tiny fetus is a baby, in and of itself. It cannot be an individual human being until it IS an individual human being.

Be that as it may, a million people (or whatever the number you toss out there) cannot make reproductive decisions for the other millions of people in the world. It is impossible. It has never worked that way and it never will. Telling everyone else what you believe to be true just doesn't make it true to everyone else. I don't expect you to give up your "fight" for "all human life" but I expect you to respect the right of all of the other people to believe differently than you.

WHY WOULD YOU FEEL SORRY FOR ME? Basically S*** happens, and if its gonna happen to someone I know, its gonna be me...Yes the baby's father is not a good person, that fact is true. I was scared to end the relationship while I was still in CC, but I should have. MY fear caused me to be irresponsible. I should have never have gotten involved with him, I shouldnt have allowed him to walk all over me....What he did was wrong, and the things hes doing now ARE wrong...but if I would have grown "some" this wouldnt have happened. BUT he has given me a great gift, a child, who I can love and be loved back unconditionally. I will never have to be alone again, I will always have someone in my life that is going to love me no matter what. Maybe the technology that your daughter's Dr isnt as good as my Dr's, I had to go to HELL and back to get into my Dr, and I cant believe the insurance will pay her incredibly high prices, however I refuse to use a male Dr, and shes not only one of the few female Dr's around, but also one of the best 3 in this area. Ive seen lotsa people's sonograms and ultrasounds at 8 weeks and further that dont look as good as mine. But trust me, the baby was 8 1/2 weeks at the oldest during that sonogram.

BTW, lots of organisms in nature that are fully developed depend on "hosts" to live, without them, they would die. The tiny fish that live on sharks are an example...A great reference to these maybe watching the Most Extreme on Discovery.

[SlimTarnishedDiva 1]

SEE Posting BELOW

[SlimTarnishedDiva 1]

Jodie.. this really isn't a place for me to get personal with you, but since you posted the info I am responding to here...here I go.

I don't know much about you, and I am rather new here. You cannot have a baby so it can love you, and you love it back. Sweetie, you will be disappointed, and more than likely develop Post Pardon Depression. Also, from a couple of other recent post you don't seem stable enough for a child, you entered in a relationship with a male you barely knew, had unprotected sex and now you might have HPV, and are expecting a child; you have a lot going on honey. That child will need a lot of care, and I know you really want this baby(maybe you think it will solve a lot of things in your life) but I really think you need to consider adoption. I am sorry if I come off harsh, I in no means, mean to hurt your feelings...but at some point one have to take in mind the well-being of the fetus. Having a baby isn't a cure and won't fix whatever lead you to make irresponsible decisions in the past, nor will it lead you to make responsible ones in the future. Maybe your insurance can help you find a support group. A baby doesn't fix your being lonely, it will just frustrate you when you do have a chance to be with friends, and the child stops you. Sometimes mothers who feel like they have no way out have went to drastic measures to get a way out.

I wish you the best of luck and hope you find incorruptibility and ethical strength from this point on...

[j_war06 0]

Jodie.. this really isn't a place for me to get personal with you, but since you posted the info I am responding to here...here I go.

I don't know much about you, and I am rather new here. You cannot have a baby so it can love you, and you love it back. Sweetie, you will be disappointed, and more than likely develop Post Pardon Depression. Also, from a couple of other recent post you don't seem stable enough for a child, you entered in a relationship with a male you barely knew, had unprotected sex and now you might have HPV, and are expecting a child; you have a lot going on honey. That child will need a lot of care, and I know you really want this baby(maybe you think it will solve a lot of things in your life) but I really think you need to consider adoption. I am sorry if I come off harsh, I in no means, mean to hurt your feelings...but at some point one have to take in mind the well-being of the fetus. Having a baby isn't a cure and won't fix whatever lead you to make irresponsible decisions in the past, nor will it lead you to make responsible ones in the future. Maybe your insurance can help you find a support group. A baby doesn't fix your being lonely, it will just frustrate you when you do have a chance to be with friends, and the child stops you. Sometimes mothers who feel like they have no way out have went to drastic measures to get a way out.

I wish you the best of luck and hope you find incorruptibility and ethical strength from this point on...

Lol! Im not lonely by any means...I just mean that I will have a special bond with someone that I created. And it wont frustrate me to not be able to go out with friends... I already dont go out if my dog doesnt want me to lol! I am not giving my child up for adoption, theres no reason to, My family and I can more than take care of this child. I will be a paralegal soon and be making pretty damn good money, and will be more than able to care for a child. See the problem with the guy is, I thought that I knew him, however due to his extensive lies and such I really didnt, therefore I was mislead. I dont want the baby to be a cure-all, I want it to be a perfectly healthy child. The HPV is most likely not sexually transmitted due to complaints Ive had with Drs in the past about ce of the rtain issues that may have been signs, before I was sexually active, of the disease. Im 20 years old I can care for a child. These baby will never go without anything it needs or wants, trust me. But I do understand your concerns, and perhaps from my post I get where you are coming from, however if you knew me in person, you would know how truly strong I can be, and how determined I can be.

[nina874 48]

Jodie, you sound so like me at 19.....! I got pregnant with my eldest then, by a totally unsuitable dad, I even married the rat, and before I left him made sure I had number 2 on board!

I came from a ......dysfunctional....family and for me having my kids was the most improtant thing in the world.

I was in awe of the lives that I had created, but it is a hard slog hon, when you cant leave the house to get a pint of milk when you have run out,cos your baby is asleep, when all your friends are telling you about the party that they went to , and you can barely keep your eyes open cos the baby has been teething all night.....that is when you will need to find your inner strength.

I have never ,not even for a second, regretted my decision,but life has been kind to me.I met a beautiful man who has been the best husband and father to my kids and we have faced what life has thrown at us together.

I have friends who were in similar situations who werent as lucky.

Stay strong ,and always, even 18 years down the line, remind yourself that your child didnt ask to be born, it will ALWAYS be your responsibility.

Oh and stay away from the dope head dad, how could he bring anything positive to that childs life? Other than getting you pregnant did he bring anything to yours?

Nina x

[nina874 48]

All these kinds of stories are interesting and they may make a difference to some people in some circumstances. But I think it is important keep in mind that they are totally irrelevant to the issue at hand. The issue is not whether abortion is good or bad. The issue is whether the state has the right to force women to bring children to term when they do not want to for any number of reasons. That's the issue here.

When you tell your stories about how bad abortion is, etc., these stories may be effective in changing someone's mind some day. Maybe you will stop someone from having an abortion, and maybe that will be a good outcome for that person. I personally support your right to tell these stories.

But again, even though such stories are appropriate in this thread, they are totally irrelevant to the real issue. And that is, again, does the state have the right to force women to bring the child to term when the women, having heard all the stories, still don't want to. That is the issue here.

I am not particularly "in favor" of abortion. I think very few people, pro choice or otherwise, are "in favor" of people having more abortions. A particular woman may be in favor of an abortion for herself under certain circumstances, but I've never known anyone who generally would encourage other people to have more abortions. The issue here is not that one side is "in favor" of abortions and the other side is not. The issue is, who gets to decide what an individual woman should do. Is it up to so-called "pro-life" people to force their views on others and criminalize this most personal of choices? Most of us don't think so.

So, feel free to tell your stories. Just keep in mind that your own personal opinion about abortions is really totally irrelevant. The issue here is whether you have the right to force your personal opinion on others. No matter what the law is, or what the Supreme Court says, the women of this country will never let others make that decision for them. They never have, and they never will.

Well said Marjon! That has and always will be the fundemental issue to me, and I know for a fact that if it is made illegal, you wont stop abortions , you will just make more women die from them.

There are already restrictions in place- some may think that they are too lax, but none the less the system is there and just because it is at time abused, is it fair to take that choice away from all?

I think that they should offer earlier medical, as opposed to surgical, terminations and offer to fit an IUD to stop the repeat customers.

Nina x

[BJean 16]

Are you just trying to be obtuse gadget, or do you really think that I am the person who needs to come up with proof for one of your arguments? You got it backasswards and you won't find me going out to prove that ALL EARLY FEMINISTS WERE PRO-LIFE or that they weren't. It is a completely ridiculous statement and there is no way you can know that ALL early feminists were pro-life. Having you make these kinds of big pronouncements here are like fingernails grating on a chalkboard... very irritating.

Mark has it right in that our arguing here only possibly helps others to solidify in their own minds exactly how or how strongly they feel about this issue. That is why the pro-life people go to such horrid extremes when they paint pictures about abortion. It's a tactic that I am sure works or they wouldn't do it. Unless they just enjoy being extremely gross.

Now I'm not talking about them waving signs with an actual aborted blob of tissue, surrounded with the sac, blood and other tissue that has actually come from a real abortion. Because I haven't actually seen that. (Not that they're above that) I've just seen photos of babies at certain gestational ages and words that say something like "this is a baby at ...(fill in the blank) weeks!!!" Murderer, Baby Killer!!!

And Mark is right. It has nothing to do with a woman's rights. It's an inflammatory argument thrown in so that passionate people can try to convince other people that their belief that we women have no right to that tiny fertilized egg affixing itself to the wall of our uterus, possibly against our will. They don't allow that woman any right to determine for herself whether she will give that fertilized egg blood, nourishment, air, and all the other things it will need to grow, be born and become a living breathing human being, with all the possibilities and responsibilities of every other human being on this earth. Right now, pro-lifers believe that THEY are the ones who get to decide for that impregnanted mother what she will do when faced with this huge, huge decision about bringing a life into the world. They are the ones who have decided that they can enslave women to do their bidding.

They want all of us good people to believe that they are completely looking out for the fertilized egg. When sometimes I wonder if they aren't in the baby brokering business. That's an ugly thing to say, but let's face it there are people in this world who do just that. And they want more of the commodity that they profit from.

[nina874 48]

What is the pro-life stance on IVF and embryo storage?

Just curious really.

Nina xx

[gadgetlady 4]

When sometimes I wonder if they aren't in the baby brokering business. That's an ugly thing to say, but let's face it there are people in this world who do just that. And they want more of the commodity that they profit from.

:pound:Priceless! And you're accusing ME of hyperbole?

[green 6]

Green , I defend every womans right, my sister has always been almost OCD about her birth control ( before she got into a same sex relationship - that sure took the pressure off!!)and always said that if she did get pregnant she would terminate, as she knew catagorically she didnt want to be a mum.

If it isnt a personal question,and feel free to tell me to sling it, have you ever regretted it? Most of my friends havent, and in fact think of it as a lucky escape, I was just wondering.

Nina x

No, I have never, ever regretted my choice and, like your sister, I was always meticulous about my birth control practices. I also made it very clear to any man with whom I was involved that I never wanted children. The irony in my life was that I kept getting involved in serious relationships with men who did want children and who did believe that they would be able to change my mind on this issue. It sure would have made my life easier had I been gay though many of my gay friends - men and women - face the opposite problem: they are anxious to have children.

As you know from a post I made on a different thread, I didn't enjoy my own childhood much. This may have played a role in my decision. As for sex, before I was placed on the Prozac clan of antidepressants my sex drive was simply far too high for me to abstain. I wanted my father's life and was grief-stricken when I was a young child that I had been born a girl. My father was self-employed and did a fine job of supporting his family. He had enormous personal freedom, had a rat-pack of cronies with whom he hung out, came and went as he wished; my mother was completely subordinate to him. Then, when I was 10, they shopped me, the only girl, off to boarding school, a place where I didn't want to be. For me having a child/children signalled the end of freedom and, well, choice. This is one of the reasons why I am very much pro-choice on this issue.

This is a long and personal post and Marjon is correct when he notes that we should leave this type of material out of this discussion but I personally find it interesting when this is interwoven with more objective arguments. It is interesting to understand where we all come from, I think.

[ELENATION 0]

You all know how I would vote. So lets see how many like me are out there.

This one goes to everyone, I just want your opinion...

My best friend had two abortions when she was 16 and 17 years old.... she was boy crazy at the time, her dad had passed away, her self esteem was so low and well, she got pregnant, her mom took her the an abortion clinic and made her have two abortions, didn't give her a choice... we never talked about it, she didn't like to talk about it, years later she finally told me that she resented her mom for making that decision for her and not giving her a choice and that she went along with it because she didn't know better and was scared....she does feel guilty about the abortions, I didn't know what to say, finally I told her that she shouldn't feel guilty, she was a minor, she was so young and scared, then she said that her mom wasn't a good mother and should have helped her instead of just pushing her to abort the babies, this was back in the 70's... she never told her mom and her mom passed away, but I know she resents her because of that, I knew her mom as well and she really was a good mom to her and a nice person overall, I really don't know what to tell my friend whenever we talk about this now, how do you feel about it? do you blame my friend, her mom, or both? or no one?

[ELENATION 0]

Forgot to add, if I was the mom, I still would've given my daughter a choice, even if she was 16 or 17...and I would've welcome that baby with open arms, I wouldn't have liked the fact that she was irresponsible and got pregnant at such an early age, I would've told her off probably, but I still would've supported her in her decision and most definitely I would've given her choices...

[gadgetlady 4]

This one goes to everyone, I just want your opinion...

My best friend had two abortions when she was 16 and 17 years old.... she was boy crazy at the time, her dad had passed away, her self esteem was so low and well, she got pregnant, her mom took her the an abortion clinic and made her have two abortions, didn't give her a choice... we never talked about it, she didn't like to talk about it, years later she finally told me that she resented her mom for making that decision for her and not giving her a choice and that she went along with it because she didn't know better and was scared....she does feel guilty about the abortions, I didn't know what to say, finally I told her that she shouldn't feel guilty, she was a minor, she was so young and scared, then she said that her mom wasn't a good mother and should have helped her instead of just pushing her to abort the babies, this was back in the 70's... she never told her mom and her mom passed away, but I know she resents her because of that, I knew her mom as well and she really was a good mom to her and a nice person overall, I really don't know what to tell my friend whenever we talk about this now, how do you feel about it? do you blame my friend, her mom, or both? or no one?

Blame is pointless. Healing is what's important. Please, if you can, refer her to some post-abortion counseling centers. I posted a few for Jodie above. Here's another good one: Abortion Recovery Counseling Abortion Recovery Counseling

[marjon9 6]

This one goes to everyone, I just want your opinion...

My best friend had two abortions when she was 16 and 17 years old.... she was boy crazy at the time, her dad had passed away, her self esteem was so low and well, she got pregnant, her mom took her the an abortion clinic and made her have two abortions, didn't give her a choice... we never talked about it, she didn't like to talk about it, years later she finally told me that she resented her mom for making that decision for her and not giving her a choice and that she went along with it because she didn't know better and was scared....she does feel guilty about the abortions, I didn't know what to say, finally I told her that she shouldn't feel guilty, she was a minor, she was so young and scared, then she said that her mom wasn't a good mother and should have helped her instead of just pushing her to abort the babies, this was back in the 70's... she never told her mom and her mom passed away, but I know she resents her because of that, I knew her mom as well and she really was a good mom to her and a nice person overall, I really don't know what to tell my friend whenever we talk about this now, how do you feel about it? do you blame my friend, her mom, or both? or no one?

I don't think it is necessarily productive to try and sort out who is to blame. We are all flawed, we do the best we can, we make mistakes. What happened happened. It's in the past now. It seems to me that the best thing your friend can do is try not to allow these past resentments and regrets to damage her present and future life. Listening to your story it seems to me that a large dose of forgiveness all around, of herself, and her mom, would be the best thing here, if it is possible.

[L8BloomR 1]

Blame is pointless. Healing is what's important. Please, if you can, refer her to some post-abortion counseling centers. I posted a few for Jodie above. Here's another good one: Abortion Recovery Counseling Abortion Recovery Counseling

I agree, she needs counseling. As I see it, she didn't do anything wrong (beyond getting pregnant); she was a minor and had to do what her mother told her. I do think this illustrates the point that for many people, abortions do have consequences. The mother was trying to protect her daughter from them, but just denying or "getting rid of" the physical aspects of the problem did not take away the emotion damage.