who supports right to choose

[gadgetlady 4]

Wow, that is the weakest argument I've seen from you, and that's saying a lot. You claim that early feminists were pro life because if any early feminist was pro-choice, she would be well-touted, so therefore there must not be any. That is your support for the argument that all early feminists were pro-life?

Oh sheesh, no that's not my argument. My claim is based on reading the works of the early feminists. And since no one can come up with early feminists who were NOT pro-life, I'd have to say that claim is pretty well founded. Furthermore, since abortion organizations are trying to SKEW the words of these pro-life feminists to say they would have been in favor of abortion in the modern day, that means that there aren't any pro-abortion feminists that they can find -- lending further credence to my claim. Why take words that are clearly pro-life and try to delve into the presumed intent of the author if you could simply find another author who supported your side with her ACTUAL words?

[nina874 48]

Thanks diva , those ultrasounds look just like my angels did at 8/9 weeks , as I said like a butter bean with the beginings of arms and legs.

Jodie - with the greatest of respect, you have seen your baby on a sonogram ( BTW ultrasound is the english word for sonogram - you are talking about the difference between an internal and external ultrasound, one is done with a probe)

I on the other hand have held an 8/9 week fetus in my hand and if you would like an in depth description I would be happy to provide it.

Gadget get hold of a copy of a book called A Child is Born by Lennart Nilsson and Lars Hamberger if you do you will see that at 4 weeks gestation the embryo is a ball of cells about the size of a pin head, that has just started to implant into the lining of the womb, a common reson for women thinking that they have had a period, otherwise know as implantation bleeding, it does not look like a very small prawn.

Nina x

P.S dont make me put up loads of links to prove the point cos you know how crap I am on computers

[gadgetlady 4]

Gadget get hold of a copy of a book called A Child is Born by Lennart Nilsson and Lars Hamberger if you do you will see that at 4 weeks gestation the embryo is a ball of cells about the size of a pin head, that has just started to implant into the lining of the womb

I have the book. I don't disagree. I don't see your point. 4 weeks gestational, roughly 2 weeks fetal, yes, that's what's going on. We were talking about 8-10 weeks.

[nina874 48]

I love that book my copy is soooo dog-eared now. Happy memories.......

By the way how early are these feminists that you are talking about? Are we talking pre vote?

Nina x

[gadgetlady 4]

It is totally anti-intuitive, and virtually inconceivable, to think that any feminist, early or otherwise, would support turning over decisions about her life to other people. A feminist, almost by definition, would support the maximum of choice and personal control and freedom in her own life.

I strongly suggest you go to Feminists for Life - Women Deserve Better for your own edification. Here is the byline on their "About Us" page:

If you believe in the strength of women and the potential of every human life,

If you refuse to choose between women and children,

If you believe no woman should be forced to choose between pursuing her education and career plans and sacrificing her child,

If you reject violence and exploitation,

Join us in challenging the status quo.

Because women deserve better choices.

Welcome to Feminists for Life.

There is a better way.

[nina874 48]

Which is what they show in pictures as 6/8 weeks , nit picking I know but huge differences developmentally. I forget why we got into it now? Was I advocating really early terminations *blush* Oh bugger I will have to check back wont I......

NIna x

[nina874 48]

Ooops I got distracted from looking back by this in wiki, it describes me !!

Some pro-choice moderates, who would otherwise be willing to accept certain restrictions on abortion, feel that political pragmatism compels them to oppose any such restrictions, as they could be used to form a slippery slope against all abortion

thats me then, a pro-choice moderate!!

[gadgetlady 4]

Which is what they show in pictures as 6/8 weeks , nit picking I know but huge differences developmentally.

I don't understand. The website, here's the link again for reference, Pregnancy.org > First Trimester Fetal Development - week 1 through week 14, firstly isn't a pro-life website (at least as far as I can glean). Secondly, it shows gestational age, and at 6-8 weeks gestational (4-6 weeks fetal), it shows the development exactly right. Weeks 1-4 are lumped together, but after that it goes week by week. Are we looking at the same site?

[gadgetlady 4]

Jodie- as when we exhanged talking points previously, I feel very sorry for you. I know you will become defensive and outraged because I said that.

Jodie hasn't said anything and I've started and deleted my response several times, but I have to say something. I'm outraged on her behalf.

[green 6]

Well, for what it is worth, I think I had my abortion somewhere around the 7th week after the ball got rolling (as it were). I do find these websites which display foetal development to be very interesting albeit on a largely academic level. I suppose I keep poking my nose into this debate because I feel that I am in the way of being your token pro-abortion baby-killer grrl.

I was not a victim of rape or of incest. My physical health was not threatened by this pregnancy. I was a well-educated, healthy, and responsible woman in her early 30s who had made a point of being extremely careful about her birth control practices because she knew that she never, ever wanted to be pregnant and that she never, ever wanted to have a child. I was living with a man who did want the child and who was, moreover, excellent genetic material in, oh, so many ways.

The issue was me.

[nina874 48]

Hi again gadget, yup they are 2 weeks ahead all the way through, you just have to add 2 weeks on to get the gestational age, if you look A Child is born you will see what I mean, their 7 week shot is for sure a 9 week gestation baby ,cos at 7 weeks it still looks a bit prawn like. You cant detect a heartbeat til 6 weeks , they are just 2 weeks out of synch, I dont know why but I have seen it before.

[nina874 48]

Green , I defend every womans right, my sister has always been almost OCD about her birth control ( before she got into a same sex relationship - that sure took the pressure off!!)and always said that if she did get pregnant she would terminate, as she knew catagorically she didnt want to be a mum.

If it isnt a personal question,and feel free to tell me to sling it, have you ever regretted it? Most of my friends havent, and in fact think of it as a lucky escape, I was just wondering.

Nina x

[j_war06 0]

Jodie hasn't said anything and I've started and deleted my response several times, but I have to say something. I'm outraged on her behalf.

I am slightly outraged, however I JUST got to my computer. Ive been busy all day and at the baby Dr, and taking a test. I am 20 years old, I am perfectly capable of taking care of a child....and Im very sorry my sonogram (which is done vaginally, while an ultrasound is done outside the vagina) is about 8 1/2 weeks not 7-8, that was my mistake, however I still could have had an abortion at that time, and look it looks like a little human, it has arms, and legs, a tummy, a head, a brain, a heart, etc.... That sonogram was taken the first week of October. And by definition that makes it alive, because it was in animation, its been in animation sense conception because it was growing, therefore that makes it alive.

BTW, I may be having problems :cry They think I might have HPV! They found a lesion in my pap smear, but because I had never had a PAP b4, they dont know how long its been there, so they dont know if its cancerous or not. They are REALLY sure its not because I was able to concieve and I havent miscarried, but Im having more tests run Dec 3.

Heres a story...I had a very LIBERAL friend in college, however we did get along, just tried to stray away from political conversations to keep from getting each others boiling points up. She was BIG on abortion, she ALWAYS said that if she got pregnant she would abort it ASAP, and blah blah blah etc...well one day I realize that I hadnt really seen her for about 3 or 4 days, and she lived across the hall from me. I go knock on her door, she was TOTALLY not herself...very sad, very withdrawn, etc...I asked her what was going on and she finally cracked...She had secretly took a friend of hers from class to get an abortion, and it really messed her up for about 2-3 weeks, now she is adamantly against it. She is still scarred by it, almost a year later. I thought that was interesting, someone SO set in their ways could change their mind that easily.

[j_war06 0]

SOOOO...I have a question....Ummm....isnt the act of having sex (between a heterosexual couple) TECHNICALLY, TRADITIONALLY to be for the purpose of reproduction, and well one of the benefits is having fun? Like the whole purpose that heterosexual people have sex with the opposite sex is to reproduce.....SOOOO basically your doing the act, of which you are aware of the possible consequences, BUT your not willing to take responsibility for what you have done?

Im willing to take responsibility for having sex when I really wasnt ready for a child (which now I am)...I realize that I have to take responsibility for what I chose...so if you dont want children...why do the deed? Thats like buying a bunch of stuff on a credit card, and then reporting the card stolen and keeping the stuff you bought...if you didnt intend to pay for it, why did you buy it? Its irresponsible...

Im not saying that I am responsible, by any means, had I been, I would have gotten rid of HIM a long time ago, and wouldnt have had pre-marital sex...however I was ready and willing to accept the consequences....If YOU dont want the child, someone else does!

[marjon9 6]

Heres a story...I had a very LIBERAL friend in college, however we did get along, just tried to stray away from political conversations to keep from getting each others boiling points up. She was BIG on abortion, she ALWAYS said that if she got pregnant she would abort it ASAP, and blah blah blah etc...well one day I realize that I hadnt really seen her for about 3 or 4 days, and she lived across the hall from me. I go knock on her door, she was TOTALLY not herself...very sad, very withdrawn, etc...I asked her what was going on and she finally cracked...She had secretly took a friend of hers from class to get an abortion, and it really messed her up for about 2-3 weeks, now she is adamantly against it. She is still scarred by it, almost a year later. I thought that was interesting, someone SO set in their ways could change their mind that easily.

All these kinds of stories are interesting and they may make a difference to some people in some circumstances. But I think it is important keep in mind that they are totally irrelevant to the issue at hand. The issue is not whether abortion is good or bad. The issue is whether the state has the right to force women to bring children to term when they do not want to for any number of reasons. That's the issue here.

When you tell your stories about how bad abortion is, etc., these stories may be effective in changing someone's mind some day. Maybe you will stop someone from having an abortion, and maybe that will be a good outcome for that person. I personally support your right to tell these stories.

But again, even though such stories are appropriate in this thread, they are totally irrelevant to the real issue. And that is, again, does the state have the right to force women to bring the child to term when the women, having heard all the stories, still don't want to. That is the issue here.

I am not particularly "in favor" of abortion. I think very few people, pro choice or otherwise, are "in favor" of people having more abortions. A particular woman may be in favor of an abortion for herself under certain circumstances, but I've never known anyone who generally would encourage other people to have more abortions. The issue here is not that one side is "in favor" of abortions and the other side is not. The issue is, who gets to decide what an individual woman should do. Is it up to so-called "pro-life" people to force their views on others and criminalize this most personal of choices? Most of us don't think so.

So, feel free to tell your stories. Just keep in mind that your own personal opinion about abortions is really totally irrelevant. The issue here is whether you have the right to force your personal opinion on others. No matter what the law is, or what the Supreme Court says, the women of this country will never let others make that decision for them. They never have, and they never will.