who supports right to choose

[kagoscuba 0]

An unborn baby, pulled from it's mother at 8 weeks, will cease to mature, no matter what type of medical care it gets. So the black and white "Either it's life or it's not" logic would seem flawed.

[gadgetlady 4]

An unborn baby, pulled from it's mother at 8 weeks, will cease to mature

Yeah, so will a full grown adult if you draw and quarter him. Viability is a measure of medical technology. 200 years ago, "viability" was very close to 40 weeks. Now it is dramatically lower. As I pointed out before, scientists are working on an artificial placenta to lower it even more. So in the 1800's, "life" began at 40 weeks, but by the mid-21st century, "life" could begin at 10 weeks? Doesn't that seem a bit arbitrary to you, that the existence of life changes as medical technology changes?

[kagoscuba 0]

Drawing and quartering an adult is an apples to oranges comparison. You could be as gentle as you wanted to be with an 8 week old fetus, but removing it from the womb will terminate its maturation. Actually, I see nothing arbitrary about medical technology advances and the existence of life. If I ever get in an accident, I have a living will saying not to resucitate me or keep me artifically "alive." Could I exist longer? Sure, but only through medical intervention. Could I have 200 years ago? Not a chance. As I stated before, I am actully willing to give the benefit of the doubt to medical science to keep a fetus maturing as the checkpoint for life versus maturing cell blob. I believe that is called a compromise of logic, based on the two camps of pure science and religious fervor.

[kagoscuba 0]

Oh, and you didn't ask, but I am personally against abortion, but am pro-choice, as I believe the government does not have a right to tell women what to do with their own body, until that scientific point when a fetus can remain viable on its own or with medical help. At that point, if a woman has an abortion, I believe she should go to jail for murder.

[gadgetlady 4]

Actually, I see nothing arbitrary about medical technology advances and the existence of life. If I ever get in an accident, I have a living will saying not to resucitate me or keep me artifically "alive." Could I exist longer? Sure, but only through medical intervention.

Ah, yes, but the medical technology doesn't negate the fact that the life exists or existed (in the case of that technology's failure). The medical technology only extends or preserves the life; it doesn't generate or grant the life. The life is an entity in and of itself.

[SlimTarnishedDiva 1]

Yeah, so will a full grown adult if you draw and quarter him. Viability is a measure of medical technology. 200 years ago, "viability" was very close to 40 weeks. Now it is dramatically lower. As I pointed out before, scientists are working on an artificial placenta to lower it even more. So in the 1800's, "life" began at 40 weeks, but by the mid-21st century, "life" could begin at 10 weeks? Doesn't that seem a bit arbitrary to you, that the existence of life changes as medical technology changes?

Life in this 21st century cannot BEGIN AT 10 WEEKS...

The fetus is only about 1.2 inches / 3 centimeters long from crown to rump and weighs less than a sixth of an ounce / 4 grams.

[j_war06 0]

P.S. - in terms of debate, this is flawed logic. Be careful how you give tips to others about making their arguments more credible. Just as easily as an aborted baby/fetus/whatever could have been the next great thing, they also could have been the next great Stalin or Amin.

You seem very comfortable with keeping your baby, and that's GREAT. It really is! I'm certainly not going to change your mind on that - it's not something I would NOT want to do, nor is it anything that's my business. I think that the presence of a baby in your life will possibly give you many things that you need, and may do you more good than you will ever understand.

I do get the impression that you're not taking responsibility for your pregnancy. I think yesterday I read you stating you were "basically forced to get pregnant" (paraphrasing). Outside of really weird sci-fi movies, that just doesn't happen. Abortion seekers, too, do not want to take responsibility for their pregnancies, you're just seeking a different outcome (your choice) than they are (their choice). It's all about the choices. ANd the matter of business, as mentioned earlier.

I'm curious -- not that long ago, you were posting that you could barely afford a package of ramen, and had to go without meals. I think you also said that your family had no money to help you out. How will you provide for the baby? Have you started looking in to family services? If not, you might want to, there can be a lot of red tape (read: delay) to wade through, and no one would want the baby to suffer for it.

Actually I work 2 jobs, and I no longer have the bills to pay that I used to, and that was actually a very long time ago...TRUST me after my suit against the father comes through I will be fine financially. And yes you can basically be forced to get pregnant...If you really want details Ill tell you, he threw out my BC pills, and when I got new ones he would find them. He made me have sex with him most of the time, rather than a consensual agreement, and he told me his purpose was to get me pregnant. I didnt do anything about it because I was scared...I didnt know until I was committed fully to the relationship that he had ACTUALLY killed people before, and after a night of almost being choked to death in my sleep, I realized that I couldnt just call the law on him and get rid of him. One of my friends however did...THAT WAS NOT GOOD, he threatened to slit my throat! NOW I am back in the comfort of my own town, and can protect myself here...I still dont go anywhere alone for fear he will find me. I am petitioning the court against him for several suits including assault, battery, negligence, and false imprisonment...as well as child support. I will be fine now and so will the child.

[gadgetlady 4]

Life in this 21st century cannot BEGIN AT 10 WEEKS...

I was speaking hypothetically about the advances of medical technology (artificial placentas already being worked on) in the future. You are right -- life doesn't begin at 10 weeks. That's a rather arbitrary time, and was the whole point of my question. LIFE begins at conception. There is no other logical time to pinpoint. You can't count back from birth to any other time and say life exists here but not one moment before. You can argue about the VALUE of that life, but there is no question but that the life is in existence from conception.

[j_war06 0]

Kagoscuba does make a good point in my book. She has a DNR in case anything happens, which is not against her statements on here. HOWEVER I know a lady who had so many abortions that it messed her up (medically) very badly! She still will not admit that it was the abortions that did it, but the Dr's keep telling her thats what it is. YET When a family member was on life support she absolutely would not allow them to "pull the plug"...HOW IS IT THAT YOU CAN KILL AN INNOCENT CHILD, and let a non-innocent adult live in agony? Also the potential for life is good enough to stand as life in some courts...especially in states where abortion is illegal. A mother can be brought to trial for SEVERAL offenses if an abortion was attempted or committed.

Also, what is bacteria but a huge mass of cells? Does that mean it isnt living? Just because it doesnt have facial features and bones etc...doesnt mean it isnt living, so what would the world do without bacteria? We would all DIE because we need bacteria to survive...

Its also very funny how many pro-choice people are also for gun-control...THAT MAKES NO SENSE! So its ok to kill something so innocent that its never even had the chance to do something bad, but you want to take away guns because they kill people? ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS! A lot of pro-choice people are also enviromentalists, they think its okay to kill a child, YET its a bad thing to cut down a tree to build a house? WTF?

P.S. I do not believe in Euthanasia (and I consider that anything that is alive currently, so from birth to old age, I REFUSE to even have animals "put down", however I do understand that if the only reason an individual is alive "technically" is because of life support, and has been on it for VERY long time, that there is likely no hope of them coming back, then it is understandable to finally let them go.)</p>

[gadgetlady 4]

She has a DNR in case anything happens, which is not against her statements on here.

More power to her. I absolutely agree that people should have the right to do whatever they want with their own lives. I just draw the line when another life is involved.

[kagoscuba 0]

Holy crap, my band made me a woman!! *not a she* No problem though.

[j_war06 0]

Holy crap, my band made me a woman!! *not a she* No problem though.

HAHAHA!!! SORRY LOL!!! That took my blond self like a whole 2 minutes to figure out what you were talking about! You need a display pic! lol! I guess, for some dumb reason, that I hardly EVER think about guys opinion on abortion

[gadgetlady 4]

Holy crap, my band made me a woman!! *not a she* No problem though.

Oops, sorry! More power to HIM. Better?

[uniqueone 0]

Jodie,

I'm just really confused as I'm sure others are. You say your boyfriend in essence repeatedly raped you and underminded you (hiding your pills) yet in recent previous posts you have said he's a great guy, you love him very much and planned on marrying him. Also, you have said he is irresponsible and an alcoholic so how do you expect to be able to depend on him for money? Further, it sounds like it's a matter of time before he'll wind up in prison since he's an habitual felony-commiting criminal. It's probably not a real good idea to count on him for any kind of support--financially, emotionally or morally. In fact, it's not a good idea to even have him around your baby ever..period.

[green 6]

Where there is life, there is hope. We can certainly catch/punish/rehabilitate (or attempt to) any evil or criminal person, but we can't "un-kill" Einstein or Beethoven.

Sadly too, we can't "un-kill" - whatever that means:confused: - Hitler, the individual who was responsible for erasing almost all of my family on my father's side, the individual who plunged Europe into a wildly destructive and costly war. We can't "un-kill" Kaiser Wilhelm, the individual who instigated the 1st World War. And, yes, I am aware that this is a cheap argument.