who supports right to choose

[phyllisc 0]

Gadgetlady,

Do you think it was ok to force pregancies on slave women? Don't you think that those women should have had a voice as to whether the wanted to have children?

What is the differnce between the Government or Pro lifers forcing their will on women to have children they don't want and a slave owner forcing his will on a slave woman to breed?

It's all about freedom isn't it. No one has dominion over my body. I am the only one who has control over whether or not I bring another living being into the world. No matter what you or the govt. has to say about it. It becomes a child when I decide it is going to be a child.

You have control over your body and no one elses. An embryo is not a child until the woman in possession of said embryo deems it so in her heart and her mind.

Trying to control what one has absolutely no control over is a bit like insanity.

[gadgetlady 4]

Do you think it was ok to force pregancies on slave women? Don't you think that those women should have had a voice as to whether the wanted to have children?

I do not think it was ok to force pregnancies on slave women; however, once one is pregnant, I do not think it's ok to take the life of the second human being in existence.

What is the differnce between the Government or Pro lifers forcing their will on women to have children they don't want and a slave owner forcing his will on a slave woman to breed?

The government's job is to protect one person's rights from infringing on another's.

It becomes a child when I decide it is going to be a child.

That's an astounding statement. Your decision determines when another person is a human being? What if you decide it's not a child when it's 3 months old? What if I decide you're not a human being right now and it's ok to enslave or kill you?

[nina874 48]

Ooooh this is a hot one, though I just cant help myself I have to take issue with some of the points raised.

I have 6 kids so for me, I am pro-life,always have been, always will be.....for the rest of woman kind I am pro-choice.

Firstly show me where you got the stats on the 18 weeks being sustainable, you see I have spent time in special care units, and on ante-natal units and I have never seen a baby of that gestation surviving long enough to make it to the SCBU.

Just to be sure I googled it

James Elgin Gill (born on 20 May 1987 in Ottawa, Canada) was the earliest premature baby in the world. He was 128 days premature (21 weeks and 5 days gestation) and weighed 1 lb. 6 oz. (624 g). He survived and is quite healthy.[10] [11]

Amillia Taylor is also often cited as the most-premature baby.[12] She was born on 24 October 2006 in Miami, Florida, at 21 weeks and 6 days gestation.[13] At birth she was 9 inches (23 cm) long and weighed 10 ounces (283 grams).[12] She suffered digestive and respiratory problems, together with a brain hemorrhage. She was discharged from the Baptist Children's Hospital on 20 February 2007.[12]

The record for the smallest premature baby to survive was held for some time by Madeline Mann, who was born at 26 weeks weighing 9.9 oz (280 g) and 9.5 inches (24 cm) long.[14] This record was broken in September 2004 by Rumaisa Rahman, who was born in the same hospital[15] at 25 weeks gestation. The new record holder was a twin whereas the former was a single birth. At birth she was eight inches (20 cm) long and weighed 244 grams (8.6 ounces). Her twin sister was also a small baby, weighing 563 grams (1 pound 4 ounces) at birth. During pregnancy their mother had suffered from pre-eclampsia, which causes dangerously high blood pressure putting the baby into distress and leading to birth by caesarean section. The larger twin left the hospital at the end of December, while the smaller remained there until 10 February 2005 by which time her weight had increased to 1.18 kg (2 pounds 10 ounces).[16] Generally healthy, the twins had to undergo laser eye surgery to correct visual problems, a common occurrence among premature babies.

There is an increasing movement towards using mifepristol and mifepristone ( yes the abortion drug) in early abortions to move away from the d&c.

I have miscarried 8 babies in total so I can tell you catagorically that at 9/10 weeks there would be no collecting body parts, my babies were at most 3/4cm long and bless them looked like butter Beans with the rudimentary beginnings of arms and legs. And dya know what even after sobbing over them I STILL defend the womans right to choose, oh and huge thanks all the pro-lifers in the hospital who when I had my dead babies labours induced treated me like shit til they read my notes.............

How can you say that have compassion for victims of rape when what you plan to do would make them powerless again??? Do you not understand that rape is a crime instigated by a desire to control and have power over someone else, not by lust??????

I have never , and will never, agree with abortion being used as contraception and I think that everyone that has one should be fitted with an IUD so that it cant happen again,but I would NEVER want to see that choice taken away.

What about embryos in IVF clinics???Where do they fall in the baby debate?

What about when the baby is found to have so many problems in utero that they will die during or just after birth??Is it fair to MAKE that mother carry the baby for another 5 months being asked every day when the happy day will be??? Walk a mile in their shoes....

It is an insult to every Jew on the planet to compare abortion to the holocaust, I am not even going to dignify that with a response.

The images that are widely used by pro-life groups are always of 2nd trimester abortions which account for a tiny percentage of the abortions carried out, but then I guess something that looks like a prehistorc prawn isnt going to grab the headlines huh?

I think that there is a strong argument in the case of late termination of healthy babies for allowing the labour to be induced and making the mother sign all rights to the child over, I dont agree with healthy babies being killed when they can survive with the right help out of the womb.But just because I dont agree with it, to remove the right for a woman to have an abortion period, for the sake of the 0.1 percent that are used to catch the headlines is something that I find staggering.

[green 6]

My cat's abortion cost me 35 bucks and I am beginning to suspect that she believes in Hell.

[nina874 48]

PMSL !!!! Green you are a baaaaad lady :car:

[green 6]

A most interesting and balanced post, nina874. I sincerely thank you. I am curious to know whether these super preemies grow up to be healthy individuals or whether they will be plagued with health issues for the duration of their lives. Can you advise us on this? Do these babies catch up to the rest of us?

[phyllisc 0]

That's an astounding statement. Your decision determines when another person is a human being? What if you decide it's not a child when it's 3 months old? What if I decide you're not a human being right now and it's ok to enslave or kill you?

No, my mother's decision determined that I would be a human being, so therefore you may not kill me or enslave me at any age after that decision was made by my mother.

[gadgetlady 4]

No, my mother's decision determined that I would be a human being, so therefore you may not kill me or enslave me at any age after that decision was made by my mother.

What if your mother decides NOW that you're not a human being?

[phyllisc 0]

What if your mother decides NOW that you're not a human being?

She missed her chance about 58.5 years ago.

[gadgetlady 4]

Firstly show me where you got the stats on the 18 weeks being sustainable, you see I have spent time in special care units, and on ante-natal units and I have never seen a baby of that gestation surviving long enough to make it to the SCBU.

I'm still looking this up and will have it for you later. I do have: Marcus Richardson, 19 weeks, 6 days, 780 grams, January 1972 University Hospital, Cincinnati. There were many very young preemies born pre-internet era and so you might not find them there.

I have miscarried 8 babies in total

:-( I'm sorry

I can tell you catagorically that at 9/10 weeks there would be no collecting body parts, my babies were at most 3/4cm long and bless them looked like butter Beans with the rudimentary beginnings of arms and legs.

Go to Pregnancy.org > First Trimester Fetal Development - week 1 through week 14 and scroll down to 9 and 10 weeks (I wish I could post the photos here but I can't get it to work). That doesn't look like a butter bean to me, and the arms and legs are well defined. After all, at 11 weeks, the baby is getting FINGERNAILS -- he couldn't do that without FINGERS. Maybe by the time you miscarried there was degradation?

oh and huge thanks all the pro-lifers in the hospital who when I had my dead babies labours induced treated me like shit til they read my notes.............

I'm sorry for that, too. No one should be subjected to further pain especially immediately after a miscarriage or an abortion.

Do you not understand that rape is a crime instigated by a desire to control and have power over someone else, not by lust??????

It is generally not a crime that has along with it a desire to procreate. But the intent isn't important here -- it is a vile, disgusting crime and I feel for the women who have had to endure it. I have several friends who have been raped.

What about when the baby is found to have so many problems in utero that they will die during or just after birth??Is it fair to MAKE that mother carry the baby for another 5 months being asked every day when the happy day will be???

Again, a horrible and extremely sad situation. Remember, though, that these diagnoses are not always correct. Further, if someone told me my 7YO had cancer and 1 month to live, I certainly wouldn't take her out into the backyard and shoot her. I'd do everything in my power to get her the medical attention to ensure her survival.

The images that are widely used by pro-life groups are always of 2nd trimester abortions which account for a tiny percentage of the abortions carried out

That's not true. Many of them are 1st trimester abortions. And with 4000 babies being aborted every day in the US, a "tiny percentage" is still a lot.

I think that there is a strong argument in the case of late termination of healthy babies for allowing the labour to be induced and making the mother sign all rights to the child over, I dont agree with healthy babies being killed when they can survive with the right help out of the womb.

Since the mother gets to "decide" when her "child" is a "child" (as many others have proposed in this thread), I think you might find a lot of disagreement herein.

[gadgetlady 4]

I am curious to know whether these super preemies grow up to be healthy individuals or whether they will be plagued with health issues for the duration of their lives. Can you advise us on this? Do these babies catch up to the rest of us?

They actually have a remarkably good outcome. I could quote you statistics but I'm running short on time. If you'd like them, I can try to find you a link to something -- let me know.

[gadgetlady 4]

She missed her chance about 58.5 years ago.

Yeah, but what if SHE doesn't think that. Did you read my post from yesterday about all the people who think parents should have the right to kill their children up until (depending on the "expert" involved) 3 days after birth, 7 days after birth, 1 month after birth, etc.?

[SlimTarnishedDiva 1]

Thanks BJean, I am very passionate about protecting womens rights, civil rights etc...

There is actually a shortage of newborns available for adoption, so this is a non-issue. Why do you think people are going abroad to adopt babies? Even if it were an issue, however, killing people is not the solution to social problems. If it was, we'd be "euthanizing" homeless and poor people every day.

:faint:

There isn't a shortage of babies who are unwanted due to varies reasons. There is a shortage for healthy cute NEWBORN babies. People go abroad to adopt for many reasons: no house inspections, shorter waiting periods, they get the gender they want, no open adoptions.. I can go on. With most states adoption laws being what they are, if a newborn baby is placed with a wanting family, they have to wait until the state has relinquished Parental rights to the baby. This process can take up to several years. Giving the biological parents enough time to wither take parenting classes, go to rehab, and or realize they want to raise their child. Sometimes they will try to find a family member to place the baby with. By going to China, Guatemala, Russia, and other places you do not run the risk of having an open adoption with a grandparent, or other family member. By the time your baby is brought to you, or you pick it up you have paid enough money that the baby is yours free and clear.

Slavery in the Bible is not comparable to slavery as we think of it in America. It was not based on heritage or nationality or color; very often, people sold themselves into slavery to pay off debts. Their "term" of slavery was for a time, not for life. People chose to be slaves so that they would be taken care of. You have to look at it in the historical context of the time to understand it. The Bible does not condone racism, race-based slavery, or any of the horrible atrocities that we commonly associate with modern slavery.

:help::car:

Slavery is slavery no matter the race of the slave. I don't have to look at it any other way, then the way I and many perceive it to be. During slavery(history shows) that they used the Bible during debates, and private meetings to justify the need to OWN another HUMAN. The Bible doesn't condone a lot of the mistreatment folks use it for, but many use it to push their agenda, and it's been that way for hundreds of years. Pick up the "Slave Chronicles" will you, it will teach you more about slavery, then a day at the Underground Railroad Museum.

Yes, I have. I've been involved with women in crisis pregnancies for over 20 years. I've talked to them, counseled them, loved them, cried with them, given them options, and helped them through post-abortive pain when they've choosen to abort. I've offered on many occasions to adopt their babies. Don't assume that I only have book knowledge on this subject.

Being involved with a "Crisis Pregnancies" isn't exactly being involved with abortion on a personal level, ie.. sister, cousin, best friend, partner, wife, or YOURSELF. I think you knew what walked a mile in their shoes meant. Offering to to adopt someone's baby who doesn't want to carry it, is a bit ballsy on your part...how would the pregnant woman know that you weren't tricking her into keeping the baby, then bail.

The point I was trying to make was not that she had a unique perspective on abortion, but rather that we have disregarded the facts about the development of the unborn in the whole abortion discussion. No one speaks to a pregnant mother about "products of conception" or "a blob of tissue" unless she is planning to abort. If she is carrying the baby to term, all of a sudden it's a baby, with body parts and everything. But otherwise, the baby is just a piece of trash.

You said the right words.. IF SHE IS CARRYING THE BABY TO TERM, THEN YES IT'S A BABY TO HER but, IF SHE DOESN'T WANT THE ZYGOTE/EMBRYO/FETUS, THEN IT'S JUST A FOREIGN OBJECT INSIDE OF HER BODY

Why is abortion not right?

IT IS RIGHT FOR THE PERSON WHO IS SEEKING ONE!!

The baby is not her body.

Yes, the baby is HER BODY, without her it will not GROW, Get nourishment, OXYGEN...Basically it can't survive outside of the womb before a certain incubation period of time...

Ya think? It's awfully easy to advocate or participate in the destruction of human life when you don't have an emotional attachment. That's what happened in Hitler's Germany -- how else could they have carried out all of those horrendous exterminations? They didn't identify the victims as human, and they didn't form emotional attachments to them.

Again, you are comparing apples to WATERMELONS!! A woman who is pregnant and have no emotional connection to the abnormality that she feels is growing inside her body, is different than a MAN who WANTED A PURE WHITE RACE...WITH NO JEWS, GAYS, OR any other NON-WHITE PERSON!! Please for the rest of the DEBATES with me, DON'T BRING UP ANYTHING THAT HAS TO DEAL WITH RACE, HOLOCAUST, OR RACISM... evoking Hitler to TRY and prove your theory/side is just as horrible as you using slavery. It's not the same in any way.

That's really sad. Dismembering people and identifying their body parts isn't shocking? And those are early-term abortions!!! What about prostaglandin or saline abortions, or partial-birth abortions, where the often viable baby is delivered, feet-first, and then stabbed at the base of the skull and the brains suctioned out? Does that not bother you either?

Again, NO SHOCK AND HORROR FOR ME. No, it's not shocking to me, and again the shock factor you are looking for fall short on many, especially since partial-birth abortions WERE ONLY GIVEN TO WOMEN WHO MEDICALLY NEEDED THEM TO SAVE THEIR LIFE, IN THE FIRST PLACE!! So, many fail to realize this... To get a little personal... I've seen a lot. I've been present at births, and had a friend who NEEDED A PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION, to save her life ... I've personally had 14 surgeries, which one as a 9 year old child they drilled a 14in screw in my knee while I was awake watching flesh fly everywhere.

Those are equally horrible. I believe that the prevalence and acceptance of abortion leads to more cases of child abuse. Those in favor of abortion claim that if abortion is illegal, more unwanted babies will be born and abused. But if abortion is the cure for child abuse, why is there still child abuse -- and, in fact, why is it on the rise?

Again putting words in my mouth. I do believe that women who aren't allowed to take BC because of strict religious beliefs suffer a great deal. Another way to look at child abuse, maybe pro-lifers who had babies they didn't want, are taking it out on the kid...

I have answered this previously but I will again lest you think I am avoiding it. Killing the baby who is the product of a crime is inflicting the death penalty on someone other than the criminal. Very often, women who have been raped and carry their babies to term report that this is the only positive thing that came out of the rape. I have a tremendous amount of compassion for women who are the victims of rape; I don't want them victimized again.

Only in the world of a pro-lifer. If one woman wishes to keep her baby, then that is fine. However, you cannot deny another womans rights based on ONE person...

I have a very good friend who has been a foster parent to a crack baby for the past 8 months. She is the sweetest thing in the world. She certainly doesn't deserve to be put down like an animal. There are people to take care of these babies.

She is very rare, but if she is just a Foster mother she is getting money from the state to take care of this baby. I didn't put anyone down like an animal, I've been very civil. I said no one seeking a newborn baby to adopt wants a drug addicted, non-healthy, baby filled with birth defects.

The baby is not her body. If it were, women would have the unique ability to have 4 arms, 4 legs, 2 brains, 2 hearts, and in about 50% of the cases, male genitalia.

Yes, but it cannot live, nor breath on it's on without needing the mother.

[gadgetlady 4]

During slavery(history shows) that they used the Bible during debates, and private meetings to justify the need to OWN another HUMAN.

They were wrong. Your claim was that the Bible condones and advocates slavery, not that the Bible was USED to condone and advocate slavery.

Being involved with a "Crisis Pregnancies" isn't exactly being involved with abortion on a personal level, ie.. sister, cousin, best friend, partner, wife, or YOURSELF.

How do you know I've never faced an unplanned pregnancy? How do you know I've never dealt with it with a best friend? In fact, I have.

Offering to to adopt someone's baby who doesn't want to carry it, is a bit ballsy on your part...how would the pregnant woman know that you weren't tricking her into keeping the baby, then bail.

Just a few pages ago someone challenged me, saying "how many unwanted babies have you offered to take?" (or something along those lines). Now, because I have, I'm equally bad.

IF SHE IS CARRYING THE BABY TO TERM, THEN YES IT'S A BABY TO HER but, IF SHE DOESN'T WANT THE ZYGOTE/EMBRYO/FETUS, THEN IT'S JUST A FOREIGN OBJECT INSIDE OF HER BODY

It is either a baby or it is not. What someone else thinks about it doesn't change it from baby to foreign object and back to baby again if she changes her mind. It is what it is. Mom's opinion of it doesn't affect what it is.

IT IS RIGHT FOR THE PERSON WHO IS SEEKING ONE!!

YOU were the one who said it wasn't right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, you are comparing apples to WATERMELONS!! A woman who is pregnant and have no emotional connection to the abnormality that she feels is growing inside her body

A baby isn't an abnormality! It is not a cancer! It is a human being!

Please for the rest of the DEBATES with me, DON'T BRING UP ANYTHING THAT HAS TO DEAL WITH RACE, HOLOCAUST, OR RACISM... evoking Hitler to TRY and prove your theory/side is just as horrible as you using slavery. It's not the same in any way.

It is the same in many ways. It is contingent on how we define our fellow human beings. I'm sorry if it offends you. Abortion is ugly.

partial-birth abortions WERE ONLY GIVEN TO WOMEN WHO MEDICALLY NEEDED THEM TO SAVE THEIR LIFE, IN THE FIRST PLACE!!

That's a load of crap and you know it. They are given to anyone who wants them.

[phyllisc 0]

Yeah, but what if SHE doesn't think that. Did you read my post from yesterday about all the people who think parents should have the right to kill their children up until (depending on the "expert" involved) 3 days after birth, 7 days after birth, 1 month after birth, etc.?

People are free to think whatever they want, but if they act on it then they might be spending the rest of their life in jail. Murder is against the law in this country and abortion is not.

There is no explaining what some crackpot thinks about when it is ok to kill a born child. Even insane people are allowed to express an opinion.